Surrey Langley Skytrain - Expo Line Extension | Proposed

[go_leafs_go02]

Personally, I'd like to see the Skytrain extended down Fraser Highway, and a LRT L-shaped route from Newton to Surrey City Centre to Guildford be constructed. A large transit node at either King George Station or Surrey Central to connect the two transit routes.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by nname

Interestingly enough, the project that TransLink contributed the most lies outside of Vancouver and Burnaby... TransLink actually contributed more on this project than Expo, Millennium, Canada, and Evergreen Line conbined!

What? GEB = $808 million P3 which means Translink over 35 years will ultimately of paid only about $270 million for the project. Last I checked:

Expo = $854 million in 1986 which by 2008 standards would be $1.5 billion

If my math is correct.... even at 1986 costs Expo _ALONE_ was more than the GEB.

So uh what? Oh and I'm not including Canada line in there.. woops. Oh and for the record, Millenium = 1.2 billion. Canada line was 1.9 billion P3 so / 3 = $660 million but alas some of that is in Richmond so let's knock that for the Vancouver portion down to say $400 million. I'll exclude Evergreen even though it does touch Burnaby because in the spirit it is outside Burnaby.

So what is this $2.4 billion project we've received South of Fraser?

Finally show of hands who thinks Expo expansion out to Langly would be started and/or finished before a UBC line is started and finished? I'd love to be proven wrong but c'mon here let's be serious. People SoF don't simply have this opinion of Translink because there isn't truth and track record behind it. Oh and it you're thinking "Gateway" is this large project SoF, that has nothing to do with Translink.

[dreambrother808]

You really think that Skytrain should be extended to Langley before UBC?

The busiest corridor has been passed over enough already due to petty regional politics.

[Whalleyboy]

I'm with him on SoF line being before UBC. I mean one just needs to look at the numbers in the last census to see how under served we are by translink.

[Vonny]

Originally Posted by jhausner

What? GEB = $808 million P3 which means Translink over 35 years will ultimately of paid only about $270 million for the project. Last I checked:

Expo = $854 million in 1986 which by 2008 standards would be $1.5 billion

If my math is correct.... even at 1986 costs Expo _ALONE_ was more than the GEB.

So uh what? Oh and I'm not including Canada line in there.. woops. Oh and for the record, Millenium = 1.2 billion. Canada line was 1.9 billion P3 so / 3 = $660 million but alas some of that is in Richmond so let's knock that for the Vancouver portion down to say $400 million. I'll exclude Evergreen even though it does touch Burnaby because in the spirit it is outside Burnaby.

So what is this $2.4 billion project we've received South of Fraser?

Finally show of hands who thinks Expo expansion out to Langly would be started and/or finished before a UBC line is started and finished? I'd love to be proven wrong but c'mon here let's be serious. People SoF don't simply have this opinion of Translink because there isn't truth and track record behind it. Oh and it you're thinking "Gateway" is this large project SoF, that has nothing to do with Translink.

You make the traditional mistake to mess up "where the rail tracks are" with "who they benefit to".

1. Is it people of Collingwood who are roaming the Skytrain Expo line?
2. Is it people of Saughnessy who are roaming the Canada line?

You will get some insight from this post


We could build a skytrain between Langley and White Rock to please the SoF political game, but it happens it could be of little use to people... and on Broadway, you will find more than half of the people from outside Vancouver


...Then you mess up the Province with Translink (forgetting there is only one taxpayer at the end):
Expo Milenium line has been paid by the Province, not Translink.
So it is very fair to include the Gateway in the picture:

1. $1 Billion for the SFPR
2. $3.5Billion for the PortMann bridge alone
3. lot of very expensive provincial project along Hwy 99 (including bus lane)...

You will return that the PortMann Bridge will be tolled: does that means it will paid by toll?

Nope, it will be not...not a chance...

already $5.5B invested by the taxpayer in transportation infrastructure in the Surrey area in the last 5 years: when enough is enough?
...and still counting: Translink is considering to pour $1B in the Pattullo bridge...SoF can't have its cake and eats it: it need to set its priorities: road or transit but simply the region, the province can't afford the both.

[Metro-One]

UBC before Surrey, Surrey has had skytrain for decades now, yet they kept on zoning for sprawl, only recently have they started to utilize their skytrain stations.

[racc]

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

I'm with him on SoF line being before UBC. I mean one just needs to look at the numbers in the last census to see how under served we are by translink.

Wait until the numbers are out for the next round of consultation. They will clearly show that the business case is much stronger for the UBC Line meaning it will require less taxpayer subsidies due to much higher ridership revenue. This means more money for transit in general. The key number is the net present value which shows essential the new cost over time including capital and operating cost minus ridership revenue.

The UBC Line at least to Arbutus has been on the books for a long time and should have been finished years ago.

Anyway, they should both go forward at the same time. I think that is the only way it will fly politically.

[Metro-One]

I would be fine with that! haha. Maybe that would be the compromise is UBC line to Arbutus where it would transfer to a rapid bus, and a Surrey extension done at the same time.

[usog]

I'd say they just need to somehow placate SOF with something nice and shiny, but not necessarily big. For better or worse the impression is that Translink sucks and neglects SOF and we sadly live in a world where impressions can overpower reality. Don't forget the message being sent by eventually tolling most of the bridges. Fair or not, it's going to piss people off and if they make a grand show of pouring more billions into elsewhere, people are going to start question where all the funding is going or why Surrey et all aren't seeing the benefits or shiny infrastructure/transit improvements or projects being built elsewhere. At least that's my opinion.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by Vonny

You make the traditional mistake to mess up "where the rail tracks are" with "who they benefit to".

1. Is it people of Collingwood who are roaming the Skytrain Expo line?
2. Is it people of Saughnessy who are roaming the Canada line?

You will get some insight from this post

Is it people in South Surrey that would benefit from a line to Langley? Is it people in Walnut Grove? Is it people in Hope? Is it people in Port Moody? Maybe we should build lines down every road of Vancouver? Remember though Translink also = busses and the service in Vancouver is still light years beyond SoF.

So your point is rather moot.

We could build a skytrain between Langley and White Rock to please the SoF political game, but it happens it could be of little use to people... and on Broadway, you will find more than half of the people from outside Vancouver


...Then you mess up the Province with Translink (forgetting there is only one taxpayer at the end):
Expo Milenium line has been paid by the Province, not Translink.
So it is very fair to include the Gateway in the picture:

It has nothing to do with politics and has everything to do with how much money is contributed vs how much service is given back. Just take yourself outside your opinion for 2 seconds and into the shoes of people who have lived SoF for more than 5 minutes. People in SoF contribute roughly 50% of all the funding to not just the Translink but the Province itself through taxes. On the SkyTrain people SoF contribute more than 50% of fares given it costs us at least double the amount to use the line than a typical Vancouverite (3 zone vs 1). YET, again I'd like you to take the time and think of how much investment in reverse has happened to SoF. Is it getting better? Maybe. But only because the population has been annoyed long enough and it will start to hit the parties politically if they ignore the region where 75%+ of the population growth is and 45-50% of the population lives.

As for Gateway, maybe you should re-read my post you quoted. I didn't include Gateway. And for the record Translink = rebranded BC Transit which is who built Expo line. It is owned and operated by Translink today. And yes you can make the argument that they are one and the same but if you actually understood where the budget dollars come from (read through some financial reports) you'd realize that we have to include Expo line in there if you are going to include the other lines and Golden Ears Bridge.

Expo and Millenium were paid for by BC Transit which became Translink. Same thing different name. Same funding sources on the books.

1. $1 Billion for the SFPR
2. $3.5Billion for the PortMann bridge alone
3. lot of very expensive provincial project along Hwy 99 (including bus lane)...

SFPR you're correct on but it is Province/Federal not Translink.

PortMann same thing and the overall Gateway project benefits the entire region not just SoF.

And that bus lane on Hwy 99? It was what 10 million or something around there? And it has been under construction for 3 years and is still not open? Yah that's really helping.

You will return that the PortMann Bridge will be tolled: does that means it will paid by toll?

Nope, it will be not...not a chance...

It will pay for part but Vancouver paid tolls for the Lion's Gate so I will agree with you on that. The people using it should pay for it I don't disagree.

already $5.5B invested by the taxpayer in transportation infrastructure in the Surrey area in the last 5 years: when enough is enough?
...and still counting: Translink is considering to pour $1B in the Pattullo bridge...SoF can't have its cake and eats it: it need to set its priorities: road or transit but simply the region, the province can't afford the both.

Unfortunately like a lot of people on these forums you're mixing apples with oranges. You can't start throwing Province/Federal projects into Translink projects or I'll start throwing things like the Sea to Sky highway, the Vancouver convention center, and BC Place's new roof and retrofit into the mix. I mean I paid for those being a tax payer. It's not road infrastructure but it doesn't directly benefit me right?

I also guess with Gateway that people in Vancouver and Burnaby get 0 benefit from cheaper goods movement regionally?

The flip side is I get _0_ benefit living SoF from Canada Line, Millenium Line, and Evergreen line. All I'm arguing for and will continue to argue for is that the 50% of money contributed by people SoF DIRECTLY into Translink's pockets should go DIRECTLY back to SoF residents in the form of Translink projects.

That's it.

Am I being a bit unrealistic? Sure same way BC residents will never get as much in the way of Federal dollars as people in Ontario or Quebec. That's just reality.

Is it getting better though? Yes.

Are we there yet? No.

If the last 5 years wasn't filled with people like me jumping up and down and shouting though, I doubt half those projects would have been done or even on the books. Hell the Patullo bridge expansion was slated for 2020-2030 and only because people started yelling has it been moved up. Not because Translink cares, but because they are worried about upcoming elections.

That's it. It just never seems like people in Vancouver or Burnaby ever have to say boo. They just get their new busses, expanded transit, and additional services without question.

I'd like to just feel like I'm not a second class citizen living in Metro Vancouver because I wasn't born long enough ago to be able to afford and live in Vancouver itself. People in Vancouver say "Hey we need a line down Broadway" and it seems like there is a study the next day. People in Surrey have been saying we want an expansion of SkyTrain for well over 10 years and only now are we getting a preliminary study. And honestly it's not just us. How long did it take for Evergreen Line?

Evergreen Line was on the books before even the Millenium line.

Anyway that's enough on this topic. Yours and my opinion are both clear to each other so let's just move forward.

[red-paladin]

My opinion is still that LRT is insufficient for Evergreen and UBC extensions, so it is too with Surrey. If Surrey is ever to be the second metro core, it can't have a second rate transit system. Less skytrain now is better than more LRT later.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by racc

Wait until the numbers are out for the next round of consultation. They will clearly show that the business case is much stronger for the UBC Line meaning it will require less taxpayer subsidies due to much higher ridership revenue. This means more money for transit in general. The key number is the net present value which shows essential the new cost over time including capital and operating cost minus ridership revenue.

The UBC Line at least to Arbutus has been on the books for a long time and should have been finished years ago.

Anyway, they should both go forward at the same time. I think that is the only way it will fly politically.

That argument would make sense if any of the SkyTrain lines actually turned a profit. None of them do. They cost more than they take in which is Translink's major stumbling block ultimately. So even if a Broadway line would take in more revenue than an expanded line out in Surrey, it would just mean it was losing LESS money than a line out in Surrey would.

I agree though they should both happen at the same time. I do think there needs to be a line out to UBC. It makes sense based on how many people work and go to school out there.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by usog

I'd say they just need to somehow placate SOF with something nice and shiny, but not necessarily big. For better or worse the impression is that Translink sucks and neglects SOF and we sadly live in a world where impressions can overpower reality. Don't forget the message being sent by eventually tolling most of the bridges. Fair or not, it's going to piss people off and if they make a grand show of pouring more billions into elsewhere, people are going to start question where all the funding is going or why Surrey et all aren't seeing the benefits or shiny infrastructure/transit improvements or projects being built elsewhere. At least that's my opinion.

There's some truth to that. Being a SoF citizen though I know me and all of my friends' opinions aren't based on the shine though and are more based on the fact it just seems like people out here need to yell, scream, and tie ourselves to burning buildings before anyone in Translink notices. If Translink actually made decisions based on reality then you'd hear a lot less complaining.

But they don't. That's why most people hold the opinion. I will definately give props where due. I am really happy about the bus expansion service that we received recently. But again it all comes with a silver lining. It always seems to come with a silver lining or it comes only when they're going to be hit politically.

Let's do a little experiement in perception. In this scenario Vancouver is the oldest child. Surrey is the youngest child. Translink are the parents. Translink takes Vancouver out to the mall and buys them new clothes for the school year. When they get home, Translink and Vancouver go through the closet and find all the older clothes that don't fit. They then give it to Surrey the youngest child who fits in the clothes and says "Hey, here are new clothes for you!"

Now let's look at it from the perspective of Vancouver. They got new clothes and Surrey their younger sibling also got new clothes. From Surrey's standpoint though their older sibling got new clothes and they only got hand-me-downs. At the end of the day though reality wise they both got "new to them" clothes right?

Now replace "clothes" with busses which happened over the last 3 years.

Realistically yes Surrey does get things but the preception is that we get hand me downs or after-thoughts. Translink right now needs a good 5-10 years of making good on what it says before I think those perceptions will vanish.

Is it right? I'm not saying it is. People SoF, me included, can sometimes fall into a WOE IS ME attitude just as quickly. That's wrong too and I'll admit when I do it. But I'm simply explaining where this feeling comes from.

Ask anyone who was born and raised in BC what their perception of Toronto and Montreal is when it comes to Federal govenrment funding. You'll get the same answer as you would asking someone in Surrey about this perception with Vancouver and Translink. Is it based in reality? Not always. But it is a realistic perception more often than not and based on fact more often than not.

[GMasterAres]

I am still of the opinion there should be no intersections on a route meant mainly for truck traffic since intersections and trucks don't mix very well, but 3 is better than 4 or 5 we heard about 6 months ago.

[racc]

Originally Posted by jhausner

That argument would make sense if any of the SkyTrain lines actually turned a profit. None of them do. They cost more than they take in which is Translink's major stumbling block ultimately. So even if a Broadway line would take in more revenue than an expanded line out in Surrey, it would just mean it was losing LESS money than a line out in Surrey would.

I agree though they should both happen at the same time. I do think there needs to be a line out to UBC. It makes sense based on how many people work and go to school out there.

They do return an operating profit. For the Canada Line, the operating profit is being used to finance part of the capital cost. The same would be true for the UBC Line. Not so for any of the SoF options all of which will require operating subsidies for the foreseeable future.

There is also a larger financial risk with the SoF lines as they would likely depend on new development for a significant portion of their ridership revenue. If that development does no materialize, then, the financial performance will suffer and there will be less money available for other transit service SoF and throughout the region.

I'm far from convinced that a lot of high density development will occur SoF at the rate some people are predicting. I suspect that a lot of people want to live in higher density development will prefer to live closer to Vancouver. The fact that Surrey Central is only really getting some life over 20 years after the Expo Line made it there is a good example of this. It even has taken a fair amount of government investment and incentives to get it this far.

The main point is to not just look at the capital costs, look at the total financial performance over the life of the project.

[Whalleyboy]

you keep saying UBC will make a profit but a good chuck of the riders holds U-pass which are way cheaper then 1, 2, or 3 and i'm willing to bet a most of SoF is gonna get 2 and 3 zone passes. which would make up a good price difference.
which makes me have my doubts broadway would make more then a SoF line.

Also note skytrain wasnt in central till about 94 so its actually less then 20.

[racc]

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

you keep saying UBC will make a profit but a good chuck of the riders holds U-pass which are way cheaper then 1, 2, or 3 and i'm willing to bet a most of SoF is gonna get 2 and 3 zone passes. which would make up a good price difference.

The big ridership is to Central Broadway and connecting to downtown. There are also lots of people working and living out at UBC. All of them will be paying full fares. Broadway corridor and UBC are regional destinations so there will be lots of 2 and 3 zone fares.

It is also cheaper transporting people with rapid transit than bus so the UBC Line will decrease any net costs of the U-PASS riders.

Anyway, look a the Net Present Value estimates in the studies. That will give you a good idea of the business case for the lines.

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

Also note skytrain wasnt in central till about 94 so its actually less then 20.

OK, 18 years, not a big diff. Richmond, Port Moody and Coquitlam Centre have all boomed even before the rapid transit lines were completed.

[Vonny]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Is it people in South Surrey that would benefit from a line to Langley? Is it people in Walnut Grove? Is it people in Hope? Is it people in Port Moody? Maybe we should build lines down every road of Vancouver? Remember though Translink also = busses and the service in Vancouver is still light years beyond SoF...

I am not sure I am well understood: The point is that that the skytrain is by large a regional investment benefiting to people beyond Vancouver:

You can't complain in a same shot that people SoF provides 50% of the skytrain revenue, and on the other hand pretend it is of no use to the same people!

You will recognize that there is something deeply flawed in your reasoning.

You say people of Vancouver rarely buy more than a one zone ticket- ditto: that eventually indicates that any SoF transit investment is much local than regional, and you can quickly see it will effectively benefit to not much more than the people living in the vicinity of the route...


You also conveniently discount the regional aspect of the transit investment, when it suits to your case, but put emphasis on it when it is also needed to support your case, like the gateway project...

You will also recognize it is a very specious argumentation you are developing here

Also, the Port-Mann bridge has been ostensibly justified by level of congestion. In that respect (like many other) - it provides certainly much more benefit to SoF than to Vancouver/Burnaby which will have to absorb the additional and unexpected traffic creating

I will also notice that neither the convention center or the new BC place's roof is a transportation investment when both Port Mann bridge and GEB are (who is talking apple and orange?).

At the end, everyone opinions have the right to be expressed, but some can not be supported by facts...

as mentioned by Racc, let's the business case speaks by itself.


PS: I am curious to be pointed to the material where we can see Translink paying the debt of the Expo and Millenium line.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by racc

Wait until the numbers are out for the next round of consultation. They will clearly show that the business case is much stronger for the UBC Line meaning it will require less taxpayer subsidies due to much higher ridership revenue. This means more money for transit in general. The key number is the net present value which shows essential the new cost over time including capital and operating cost minus ridership revenue.

The UBC Line at least to Arbutus has been on the books for a long time and should have been finished years ago.

Anyway, they should both go forward at the same time. I think that is the only way it will fly politically.

UBC Line at least to Arbutus would have been done last decade if Ujal Dosanj approved the $75 vehicle levy that would have funded Translink's expansion plans. As a matter of fact, Evergreen, Canada Line and UBC would have been done before 2010, and Surrey expansion would begin now but I guess politicians belonging to sinking ship parties would rather have a scorched Earth approach instead of doing the right thing.

Originally Posted by red-paladin

My opinion is still that LRT is insufficient for Evergreen and UBC extensions, so it is too with Surrey. If Surrey is ever to be the second metro core, it can't have a second rate transit system. Less skytrain now is better than more LRT later.

To be honest, given the paltry office tower proposals in King George Station and the fact that the owners of the land at the Gateway Station refuses to build its own proposed office buildings, I seriously doubt Surrey will be a second metro core. It will take a lot of guts from the powers to be and people with money to make it happen, but it seems it simply ain't happening yet.

That said, I still think that its Surrey rapid transit before UBC. UBC already has a good transit system, its just not luxurious to the point that a UBC student travelling from Surrey couldn't get to school in lightning speed. To alleviate the Broadway congestion, just make relief lines in parallel routes, something I think both Translink and Vancouver are already looking into.

But for the rest of Surrey outside Whalley, they simply simply simply have NOTHING but extremely poor transit service. People would rather, and rightfully so, use junky old beater cars and it would provide a much more efficient means of travel than whatever transit service that is currently in place there. And there is NO relief in sight until they get some form of rapid transit, LRT or Skytrain. And yes, they do pay much of the regions taxes so its only morally right that they get something in return as oppose to the already highly subsidized UBC students and Westside Vancouver residents.

[nname]

Originally Posted by jhausner

What? GEB = $808 million P3 which means Translink over 35 years will ultimately of paid only about $270 million for the project. Last I checked:

Expo = $854 million in 1986 which by 2008 standards would be $1.5 billion

If my math is correct.... even at 1986 costs Expo _ALONE_ was more than the GEB.

So uh what? Oh and I'm not including Canada line in there.. woops. Oh and for the record, Millenium = 1.2 billion. Canada line was 1.9 billion P3 so / 3 = $660 million but alas some of that is in Richmond so let's knock that for the Vancouver portion down to say $400 million. I'll exclude Evergreen even though it does touch Burnaby because in the spirit it is outside Burnaby.

Expo Line was paid by BC Transit. TransLink paid $0. They don't own it, they didn't pay for it. The line is still on BC Transit's book as of today.
Millennium Line was paid by the provincial government, TransLink paid $0. TransLink doesn't own the line, MoT does.
Canada Line was paid partially by senior government, TransLink's contribution is $334 millions
Evergreen Line TransLink's contribution is $400 millions.

Add them all up, its $733 millions.

Originally Posted by jhausner

So what is this $2.4 billion project we've received South of Fraser?

Port Mann, Highway 1, SFPR, ....

If you add TransLink's contributions, SoF comes out at the top.
If you add non-TransLink's contributions, SoF still comes out at the top...