Electoral Reform

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

At the same time, perhaps the provinces would have responsibility for determining the districts.

No - that's a terrible failure in the US. An independent commission as we have now is best.

[Mongo62]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

At the same time, perhaps the provinces would have responsibility for determining the districts.

That's a terrible idea. It's handing the opportunity to redraw the districts to the political parties which control the provincial governments. You could end up with US-style gerrymandering.

[vid]

Even if you got the provincial election commissions to draw the boundaries, since their rules are nearly identical to the federal commission, you'd likely end up with the same results anyway, so there is no point in giving provinces the ability to draw riding boundaries.

The American system where states send representatives to congress instead of them being directly elected is something we could consider for senate. Having the provinces and territories elect their senators during their provincial elections instead of electing all 107 senators during the federal election would be an interesting way of sending representatives to the house and make the dynamics of it kind of interesting. Though it might give a lot of weight to Ontario and Quebec, a shift in power in one of those provinces could flip the senate from one party's majority to another.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by vid

Even if you got the provincial election commissions to draw the boundaries, since their rules are nearly identical to the federal commission, you'd likely end up with the same results anyway, so there is no point in giving provinces the ability to draw riding boundaries.

The American system where states send representatives to congress instead of them being directly elected is something we could consider for senate. Having the provinces and territories elect their senators during their provincial elections instead of electing all 107 senators during the federal election would be an interesting way of sending representatives to the house and make the dynamics of it kind of interesting. Though it might give a lot of weight to Ontario and Quebec, a shift in power in one of those provinces could flip the senate from one party's majority to another.

I like the idea of senators being appointed from lists of qualified candidates provided by the provincial governments, although I'd leave it to the individual provinces to decide whether or not to use elections to generate the lists.

[MonctonRad]

The senate should be the "House of the Provinces" (but still called the senate).

Yes, appointees to the senate should be named provincially. I agree that they should ultimately all be elected, but this might take some time to get established.

It should be remembered that in the US, the senate was originally appointed, but gradually certain states decided on having senatorial elections. Eventually, once enough states decided on this process, the rest fell into line. Something similar might happen here in Canada........

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The senate should be the "House of the Provinces" (but still called the senate).

Yes, appointees to the senate should be named provincially. I agree that they should ultimately all be elected, but this might take some time to get established.

It should be remembered that in the US, the senate was originally appointed, but gradually certain states decided on having senatorial elections. Eventually, once enough states decided on this process, the rest fell into line. Something similar might happen here in Canada........

I'm just not convinced it would be worth the effort and expense to run elections, absent more substantive changes in the Senate's role, which seems unlikely these days. If there were to be elections, I'd want to see them held to generate a roster of candidates from which the GofC could appoint candidates as openings become available.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

I like the idea of smaller voting districts with the results being proportional within the district, but not within the House as a whole. I think it would be a reasonable compromise between the geographical representation and proportional representation. At the same time, perhaps the provinces would have responsibility for determining the districts.

This (having fewer, larger electoral districts with multiple representatives) is generally the model people are talking about when discussing PR and its derivations. Nationwide proportional representation, where the entire country is the constituency and there are no local representatives, only exists in two countries: the Netherlands and Israel.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

This (having fewer, larger electoral districts with multiple representatives) is generally the model people are talking about when discussing PR and its derivations. Nationwide proportional representation, where the entire country is the constituency and there are no local representatives, only exists in two countries: the Netherlands and Israel.

While Ontario might not be concerned, I don't think the other regions would ever go for national PR.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

While Ontario might not be concerned, I don't think the other regions would ever go for national PR.

That's what I'm saying; I interpreted Jeremy's post as meaning that he was concerned about nationwide PR being proposed, and I was just saying that there is very little precedent for it and that it won't be happening here.

[MonctonRad]

Interesting commentary on CBC.ca

There's no sunny way to change Canada's democracy: Neil Macdonald
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/elec...ment-1.3584695

The Liberals, having mouldered for the past several years in third-party irrelevance, convinced themselves that for the good of Canada (and the Liberals) the system must change

The minister responsible, Maryam Monsef, who is superb at sticking to happy-sunny talking points, smiled a big smile and told reporters: "This conversation cannot be about our parties. This conversation needs to be about what is in the best interest of Canadians."

Except that the Liberals, who, remember, were elected with 39.5 per cent of the vote, decided to award themselves 60 per cent of the voting seats on the committee.

The other four seats will go to the Conservatives and NDP.

In the name of "inclusiveness," the government has given the Bloc Quebecois and the Green Party one seat each, but, uninclusively, they won't get to vote. ("Thanks guys, good talk. Now off you go, we have a decision to make.")

Anyway, just in case anyone misses the irony, the Liberals, having won under the terribly unfair first-past-the-post system, have now designed a committee to change the system and awarded themselves decisive power in the process.

Monsef protests that any decision made by this committee will then have to be debated and voted upon by the entire House, which of course is also dominated by Liberals because of that awful first-past-the-post system.

It all does seem sort of rigged

Because it may just be that Justin Trudeau thinks he has enough sunny-ways political capital to push this through on his own terms.

If he does so, over the objections of the other parties, it will stink of illegitimacy.

[wg_flamip]

^ It is kind of funny, isn't it? By taking control of the committee, the Liberals have taken on complete responsibility for the outcome. The Liberals have now given the NDP and Greens - who may have supported any reform over the status quo - room to object to reforms they don't like, and the ability to disavow the outcome of the process were it to prove unpopular.

[kiwi]

Liberals allow NDP motion today.

[kwoldtimer]

The Chief Electoral Officer has told the parliamentary committee that a national referendum on electoral reform would cost $300 million and take approximately 6 months to prepare. I assume that cost relates to direct costs to government only, and does not include the costs that would be incurred by the (various?) referendum committees.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle30786762/

[Franco401]

NB will study Electoral Reform in the future, here is an article relating to some difficulty in forming the commitee: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...tion-1.3667217

[vid]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The Chief Electoral Officer has told the parliamentary committee that a national referendum on electoral reform would cost $300 million and take approximately 6 months to prepare. I assume that cost relates to direct costs to government only, and does not include the costs that would be incurred by the (various?) referendum committees.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle30786762/

Considering general elections cost about $300 million, I'm assuming that's just the cost of setting up the awareness campaign, renting space to use as polling places, and hiring staff to run the entire thing in all 338 ridings.

[BretttheRiderFan]

Personally I like the single transferable vote option for Canada. Allows us to maintain electoral districts and ensures MPs are elected with wide popular support in those districts.

[Aylmer]

I liked the idea of STV as well, but one thing which has kinda made me reconsider is the role of MPs in such a system.

An STV system usually requires at least 4-5 MPs per riding, which makes for HUGE ridings both population-wise and geographically in most cases. Even in relatively urban areas like Gatineau, that means a riding which stretches 200km across.

What a lot of people don't realize is that most of the work of an MP and his office is constituency-based; showing up at events, untangling bureaucratic struggles, getting funding, helping with immigration files, etc. In such a mega-riding, not only is it tremendously difficult to actually be responsive to the needs of its residents, but you're competing with co-MPs, often from different parties. So if you're looking to get funding for a project or you're having tax problems, who do you turn to? The one you voted for? The one who's in government? The one who looks like she works hard? All of them? MPs are incentivised to be campaigning every day on the taxpayer's dime to be the "Alpha-MP" of a impossibly vast area instead of actually getting things done.

I used to think that STV combined the proportionnality of MMP and the local representativity of AV/FPTP, but when I really thought about it, I came to the conclusion that in a country as large as Canada, it would hardly allow for any effective local consituency and only allow for some proportionnality.

[MonctonRad]

Excellent post!

In a country like Canada, the huge nature of some rural ridings can be a real problem. With STV, Saskatchewan could end up with two, or at most three ridings. All of northern Ontario could be a single riding. You could have a situation where the nearest "local" MP is resident in a place 300 km from where you live. Just how responsive would this individual be to your concerns?

Mega ridings are not an option........

[eemy]

I like the idea of having MMP, but separate party lists for different regions. Regions could be the entire province in some cases, or smaller regions where the province is quite large.

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Excellent post!

In a country like Canada, the huge nature of some rural ridings can be a real problem. With STV, Saskatchewan could end up with two, or at most three ridings. All of northern Ontario could be a single riding. You could have a situation where the nearest "local" MP is resident in a place 300 km from where you live. Just how responsive would this individual be to your concerns?

Mega ridings are not an option........

Well I attended yesterday's electoral reform committee and the former electoral officer proposed a mixed STV system where remote ridings would still operate with FPTP. That may resolve that issue, but I think it's also important to underline how even urban ridings would face some major (and imo undesirable) issues, if only by virtue of having to represent constituencies of upwards of half a million people and jockey competitively with co-MPs, regardless of geography.