Pictures of Ottawa

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

The problem with the waterfront as it exists now is it is all the same, almost all of it is grass, pathway, expressway, more grass and it is rare that the waterfront supports any activity other than linear transportation (driving, walking, biking, etc). Waterfront parks are great but in very few places that could be considered a park and it mostly just looks like the mowed area beside a highway.

Nationally Significant Grass for All The Canadians, of course.

[FFX-ME]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

You can scatter around cafes and sitting areas and expect to end up with the pictures that were presented. Not likely.

As one person pointed out, the city can only support so many places to go get a coffee. And it can only support so many vibrant locations. In every case, those locations have to be close to where people live, work and play. There also has to be a critical mass of people places.

When I look at Ottawa, the city backs away from the waterways. On the Rideau, to a great degree the flood plains were expropriated in the 40s and 50s and for good reason. Flooding was a major problem. The city also backed away from waterways because of industry.

Look at Rideau Falls, it used to be all industry. But even historic photos show a mostly barren Green Island. I cannot ever see this becoming a vibrant location. It is too far separated from where people live by busy highways and streets and office buildings and even the expanse of Rideau Hall. And it necessarily backs away from the Ottawa River because of the cliffs.

As I indicated above, if we want something better we need to focus on one location to create the critical mass needed and that location is Lebreton and Zibi. These are wide open slates that we can deliberately build into something where people will want to go. That is the plan. These are the places where people will live, work and play. The perfect combination.

if we look at Lansdowne and think on a greater scale, we will succeed. And it has to be a greater scale since Lansdowne already had the neighbouring Glebe and Old Ottawa South.

But if we try to scatter around, we are doomed to failure. Of course, we can make improvements anywhere, but if you want something like what was presented in the photos, then Lebreton and Zibi is where we need to go.

Leave the Rideau Canal to be mainly that place to ride your bike, jog or walk the dog. Even Lansdowne, the focus of the lively activity was necessarily placed near Bank Street, where the pedestrian traffic and transit access was available. Do you think it would have worked if everything was placed behind the Aberdeen Pavillion instead of in front? I don't think so. You would have lost the continuity of activity along Bank Street.

This!!!

Originally Posted by acottawa

^^
I think those are good points, but most cities backed away from their rivers in the past as rivers were used for industry or railways or open sewers. Since then many cities have re-connected to their waterfront.

I have no idea what the café/bar/restaurant capacity of the city is. The city absorbed Lansdowne without any problems and there has been an increase in the number of restaurants and coffee shops in a number of central neighbourhoods (Elgin and Preston come to mind). I would tend to think the city could support a 10 restaurant development, particularly if it was located in a sensible way.

Also, there is more to animating the waterfront that building restaurants. Playgrounds, water features, sports facilities, snack bars and arts facilities could also liven things up. The NCC has a very puritanical/Victorian/Edwardian approach to its public spaces, where the only legitimate activities for the waterfront are those socially acceptable before WWI: carriage riding (now driving), cycling, walking, picnicking and sitting.

The city did not "absorb" the influx of new restaurants in Lansdowne. Restaurants in the market have been taking a hit, many of them closing.

As mentioned, Zibi and Lebreton can yield much more vibrant communities with waterfronts than the canal with its limited space can... and they would do this without desecrating a world heritage site for a "café" experiment.

Anyways, like I said, there IS a café on the canal currently, and its performance does not suggest further demand.

[ElieB]

Your fixation on 'cafes' and commercial plazas like lansdowne and future lebreton misses the point entirely. Activating public space doesn't = places to spend money... You're not addressing the nature of public-use publicly owned spaces in the city, and whether they should promote simply biking/running or a larger cross section of activities which only require presence, not dollars.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

This!!!



The city did not "absorb" the influx of new restaurants in Lansdowne. Restaurants in the market have been taking a hit, many of them closing.

As mentioned, Zibi and Lebreton can yield much more vibrant communities with waterfronts than the canal with its limited space can... and they would do this without desecrating a world heritage site for a "café" experiment.

Anyways, like I said, there IS a café on the canal currently, and its performance does not suggest further demand.

There is a temporary structure built from 2x4s with a very limited menu. It is a nice start, but I would not necessarily think it is a good measure for demand for restaurants/cafés on the canal

[ElieB]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is a temporary structure built from 2x4s with a very limited menu. It is a nice start, but I would not necessarily think it is a good measure for demand for restaurants/cafés on the canal

And it doesn't even have washrooms... Would make a much better public space area for lounging or gathering by the canal if it wasn't a business at all. Just a little patio and make-shift beach area.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by ElieB

Your fixation on 'cafes' and commercial plazas like lansdowne and future lebreton misses the point entirely. Activating public space doesn't = places to spend money... You're not addressing the nature of public-use publicly owned spaces in the city, and whether they should promote simply biking/running or a larger cross section of activities which only require presence, not dollars.

I am sorry but I look at those three photos and that is exactly what we are talking about. Places to shop, eat and drink.

What is the alternative?

Turning the land next to the Rideau Canal into million dollar condos? Turning public space into private property? Building office buildings on green space?

It certainly not going to be historic buildings being built there. Too late for that. Other tourist attractions like those so many panned in the Lebreton proposal?

I really don't get what you are getting at.

And at what expense? We lose the green space, the bike paths. Block the iconic vista up the canal to Parliament hill with buildings, most likely of second rate design?

I think we need to be careful in what we wish for.

As I have said before, there is a lot of history behind how the Rideau Canal has evolved to this point. It will take a lot to change that course. And in the end, will it be better? Remember that strip of land is pretty narrow, and there are a lot of Nimbys ready to pounce on every proposal.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

The city did not "absorb" the influx of new restaurants in Lansdowne. Restaurants in the market have been taking a hit, many of them closing.

And the link to Lansdowne opening would be... ?

Anyways, like I said, there IS a café on the canal currently, and its performance does not suggest further demand.

That's what an edge vacuum will do.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

and they would do this without desecrating a world heritage site for a "café" experiment.

I posted a while back on how the "World Heritage" designation was one of the worst things to ever happen to Ottawa.

Exhibit A.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I posted a while back on how the "World Heritage" designation was one of the worst things to ever happen to Ottawa.

Exhibit A.

Are you recommending that we desecrate the Rideau Canal corridor?

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Are you recommending that we desecrate the Rideau Canal corridor?

It's actually a good question. I suspect that the NCC would never consider/approve anything on the canal that might threaten the world heritage status. The embarrassment to Canada would be too great (I can hear the exasperated huffs, but that's how it works). The question then becomes one of what kind of canal-side development would not threaten the heritage status. On that, I have no idea.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Are you recommending that we desecrate the Rideau Canal corridor?

^^
^
I fail to see how a freeway enhances the world heritage site and a café would desecrate it. Certainly most human-made world heritage sites are surrounded by places to eat/drink/etc. and UNESCO does not revoke their status. The current design of the canal area dates from the 1920s to the 1970s. The UNESCO designation refers to the canal itself and not to the historic freeways, or grass.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1221

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

^^
^
I fail to see how a freeway enhances the world heritage site and a café would desecrate it. Certainly most human-made world heritage sites are surrounded by places to eat/drink/etc. and UNESCO does not revoke their status. The current design of the canal area dates from the 1920s to the 1970s. The UNESCO designation refers to the canal itself and not to the historic freeways, or grass.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1221

Fair enough, but I made that comment a bit tongue in cheek because of the previous comment.

[acottawa]

UNESCO site - historic centre of Florence

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.77141...2!8i6656?hl=en

UNESCO site - historic centre of Siena

https://www.google.ca/maps/@43.31820...2!8i6656?hl=en

UNESCO site - Seventeenth-century canal ring area of Amsterdam inside the Singelgracht

https://www.google.com/maps/@52.3640...2!8i6656?hl=en

UNESCO site - historic centre of Avignon

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Avi...!6m1!1e1?hl=en

[kwoldtimer]

[QUOTE=acottawa;7651037]^^
^
I fail to see how a freeway enhances the world heritage site and a café would desecrate it. Certainly most human-made world heritage sites are surrounded by places to eat/drink/etc. and UNESCO does not revoke their status. The current design of the canal area dates from the 1920s to the 1970s. The UNESCO designation refers to the canal itself and not to the historic freeways, or grass.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1221[/QUOTE]

What is the implication of the reference to the "buffer zone", I wonder?

[acottawa]

[QUOTE=kwoldtimer;7651056]

Originally Posted by acottawa

^^
^
I fail to see how a freeway enhances the world heritage site and a café would desecrate it. Certainly most human-made world heritage sites are surrounded by places to eat/drink/etc. and UNESCO does not revoke their status. The current design of the canal area dates from the 1920s to the 1970s. The UNESCO designation refers to the canal itself and not to the historic freeways, or grass.

http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1221[/QUOTE]

What is the implication of the reference to the "buffer zone", I wonder?

Maybe, but that just seems to be a list of measures that Parks Canada has implemented, which is a domestic policy. There is no mention of the 1970s design elements (freeway, grass, different kind of freeway, more grass, pathway, grass) as being included in the designation, although it does mention the "watercourses, dams, bridges, fortifications, lock stations and related archaeological resources."

[lrt's friend]

OK, so we close the parkways. Then what happens? How do we even get there anymore? How do we promote anything? These corridors are several km long. If there is no transport for easy access, how do these become people places?

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

OK, so we close the parkways. Then what happens? How do we even get there anymore? How do we promote anything? These corridors are several km long. If there is no transport for easy access, how do these become people places?

I don't think it is necessary to close all of the parkways (although yesterday I suggested a segment that I thought should be closed) I just think we shouldn't be wedded to 1960s/1970s thinking forever. For example, if a small segment (say from Laurier to Somerset on the east side) were "urbanized" (sidewalks, lighting, benches) it could enhance access to the canal. The parkways were ostensibly designed for recreational driving, but current thinking on things like climate change, the health risks of being sedentary and the dangers of distracted driving no longer align with the promotion of recreational driving.

[SkeggsEggs]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

OK, so we close the parkways. Then what happens? How do we even get there anymore? How do we promote anything? These corridors are several km long. If there is no transport for easy access, how do these become people places?

I don't think anybody is advocating getting rid of all the parkways. The parkways move people through the area but I don't imagine alot of people use them to actually get to the Canal within the city. For example, Colonel By between Daly and either Main Street or Hawthorne could and should be closed in my mind. There would be access from Main Street, Laurier, Downtown and the uOttawa LRT station. Throw in a few small buildings, washrooms, a playground or two and places to sit and that portion of the Canal will have far more people than it currently does.

[acottawa]

An even better example would be the aviation parkway, which would still be a good arterial road, but also support a lot more users if it had street lighting, sidewalks (with winter plowing), bike lanes, pedestrian crossings and transit.

[McC]

Originally Posted by SkeggsEggs

Throw in a few small buildings, washrooms, a playground or two and places to sit and that portion of the Canal will have far more people than it currently does.

how would you service those buildings and washrooms? From Nicholas (no-longer free-flowing)?