Portage and Main re-opening 2016

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

^ it's not that hard to work out that this is a net positive. It just baffles me considering the amount of intersections across the city, that have higher traffic counts in some cases, that are open to pedestrians. Like people should be clamouring to reclaim this highly symbolic space and transform it into what it can be for the city. I love the city to death but I don't get this resistance to any change. The barriers are like the proverbial "Mauer im Kopf", they're certainly an obstacle physically speaking, but they represent a psychological impediment to the transformation of the can't into a can do attitude for the city.

I really believe it will be the first domino to fall in a serious renaissance.

But I seriously swear that people have made that Weakerthans song into some weird self-fulfilling prophesy, and it explains the Winnipeg psyche perfectly.

Dude, it's an INTERSECTION. You are treating it like Winnipeg just won a contract with Amazon. It's not that important, believe it or not.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Riverman

Your next mayor.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manito...aign-1.4591750

Ah. I see.

Anyone who thinks letting people cross the street is the hot button issue that will mobilize voters will get a pretty rude awakening I think.

Sitting Mayor’s don’t get beat. Bowman won’t either.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

Maybe I'm being too critical of the posters who think this way, but it really rubs some the wrong way to suggest the average citizen is inferior to people with understanding of civic issues or urban planning. Believe me, the average citizen is much more intelligent than some on this forum give them credit for. While it's true that many Winnipeggers do not have background in civil engineering, or city planning, to say the average citizen does not have a "clue" about these issues is condescending, and incorrect.

People support things that affect them personally. Most people value driving speed. It’s the same ideal that destroyed communities across the continent to build freeeays through them. The majority believed driving faster was more important to them than healthy neighbourhoods.

Downtown has a minority voice. People don’t live there. Most people don’t go there. Many drive through. So that becomes the priority. The health and prosperity of downtown is not a concern for most people. The health of any neighbourhood that you don’t live in isn’t a priority for you.

We elect governments to make decisions that look at the whole picture. The long term benefits. The only opposition to portage and main is a fear of traffic. The benefits are dismissed because only traffic matters to people. Government is charged with improving safety, growing the economy, among many other things. Most people would say those are also priorities. Sometimes you have to make changes to achieve new outcomes.

[trueviking]

I totally agree that it’s just an intersection. The amount of fear over letting people cross the street is unbelievable. It won’t save the world. The world won’t end. We know what happens when there are no people there. Let’s try it with people and see what happens. If it’s a disaster in a few years roll in the walls. They need to be replaced anyways. The look like hell.

To me it is also an important symbolic move. We have never prioritized pedestrians over drivers. Downtown will always be what it is until we change that.

[trueviking]

I’m sure if you took a poll asking, should we buy more busses or fill more potholes, the overwhelming majority would say fill potholes. Because that’s what affects them most. But governments can’t act only on popular opinion. A balance must be found. As it will be at Portage and Main.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by trueviking

I totally agree that it’s just an intersection. The amount of fear over letting people cross the street is unbelievable. It won’t save the world. The world won’t end. We know what happens when there are no people there. Let’s try it with people and see what happens. If it’s a disaster in a few years roll in the walls. They need to be replaced anyways. The look like hell.
.

It's interesting that in this post 9/11 age, barriers of various ugly shapes and sizes are now pretty common in many cities' downtown areas. So the "In Winnipeg, we actually have barriers at a major downtown intersection!" argument has begun to lose its shaming rhetorical force.

I would agree with you if there were a way to perform a trial run safely and relatively cheaply. Why not focus on figuring out how that could be accomplished - if it could be, and the sky didn't fall, then who could disagree with a plan to go ahead with the full project?

I still think it might make more sense to improve the aesthetics of the existing configuration and focus on creating attractive and easily accessible entrances to the underground. Maybe do something imaginative down there instead.

[wave46]

Legitimate question: Does this debate really loom as large in 'real' Winnipeg as it does here?

It seems like such a non-event for a city the size of Winnipeg. I'd imagine more people care about taxes, roads or something else.

Just curious.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by Andy6

It's interesting that in this post 9/11 age, barriers of various ugly shapes and sizes are now pretty common in many cities' downtown areas. So the "In Winnipeg, we actually have barriers at a major downtown intersection!" argument has begun to lose its shaming rhetorical force.

I would agree with you if there were a way to perform a trial run safely and relatively cheaply. Why not focus on figuring out how that could be accomplished - if it could be, and the sky didn't fall, then who could disagree with a plan to go ahead with the full project?

I still think it might make more sense to improve the aesthetics of the existing configuration and focus on creating attractive and easily accessible entrances to the underground. Maybe do something imaginative down there instead.

You talk as if it’s a zero sum game. They can and are doing both.

[Wpg_Guy]

Originally Posted by wave46

Legitimate question: Does this debate really loom as large in 'real' Winnipeg as it does here?

It seems like such a non-event for a city the size of Winnipeg. I'd imagine more people care about taxes, roads or something else.

Just curious.

It's unbelievable what a nerve it hits with Winnipegers, take a moment and read these ridiculous unfounded comments.

https://www.facebook.com/cbcmanitoba...2%3A%22O%22%7D

From one of our knowledgeable informed citizens with such real valid remarks :

Kumaran Reddy there is zero economic benefit to opening this intersection..It's a cold dirty nasty intersection that was good to get rid of the pedestrian factor...Also if it is reopened it needs to be wheel chair accessible 24/7 and what are the chances of that..There is a wonderful tunnel right underneath that is warm and dry with places to spend money .In the TWIN CITIES they have tunnels connecting all of under ground because in a northern climate it only makes sense. wait we have been connecting Winnipeg downtown underground because of our weather and more..

where can you spend money on this intersection and what business could possibly benefit from this ?? Did anyone who voted for this ever use that intersection or stand on it to enjoy themselves on a balmy winter day..I THINK NOT !

His remarks on 300 Main
Not 1 of the people using the business's you have identified will use that street crossing.they will all park there expensive cars in the car park and access from tunnels etc..the will never take the bus.. yes the city has some back room deals with a few tenants..that has no benefit to the rest of us... There are no places to sit stay or spend money on that corner ..so while your friends might be benefiting the rest of most of the city will not ..why should we all pay for that.. all the business you identified do not rely on people on the buses or foot traffic from random tourists... so nice try but sorry ..there is zero benefits to Winnpeggers.. it is a terrible idea and will cause all kinds of traffic flow problems.. will you be shoveling snow 24-7 for the wheel chairs who will be entitled to that level of service ??? sorry your argument holds no grounds..again what will these people be doing with their hard earned money at Portage and MAIN ..OY YEAH NOTHING IT'S A NASTY COLD HORRIBLE INTERSECTION BEST AVOIDED AT ALL COST..

seen this city grow since 1970 ..sorry man try walking in January from 300 portage to say old market square...it would never happen and no one is trying to do it..you drive to where you need to go and park in a parkcade or at the business. There is zero need for physical foot traffic at portage and main..develop all you want...true north is dominating...but why the foot traffic at portage and main..the first time some drunk in a wheel chair goes out for a psychotic episode in the intersection i will think of you and howl with laughter...

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by trueviking

People support things that affect them personally. Most people value driving speed. It’s the same ideal that destroyed communities across the continent to build freeeays through them. The majority believed driving faster was more important to them than healthy neighbourhoods.

You are comparing the US Freeway system (i.e NYC, LA, Chicago, Minneapolis, Seattle, etc) that destroyed communities, divided groups of people, and caused irreparable harm to their respective cities, to a simple intersection in Winnipeg. Are you for real?

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by trueviking

I totally agree that it’s just an intersection. The amount of fear over letting people cross the street is unbelievable. It won’t save the world. The world won’t end. We know what happens when there are no people there. Let’s try it with people and see what happens. If it’s a disaster in a few years roll in the walls. They need to be replaced anyways. The look like hell.

To me it is also an important symbolic move. We have never prioritized pedestrians over drivers. Downtown will always be what it is until we change that.

Considering the traffic that goes through Portage and Main, I'm somewhat divided as to opening the intersection. Maybe the East Portage Ave intersection first, and go from there. However, we should really make pedestrian traffic more of a priority in the Corydon, Osborne, Downtown, and others first. P & M is only symbolic. It's not going to change Winnipeg, one way, or another.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by wave46

Legitimate question: Does this debate really loom as large in 'real' Winnipeg as it does here?

It seems like such a non-event for a city the size of Winnipeg. I'd imagine more people care about taxes, roads or something else.

Just curious.

NO.

Very few people care. You are correct. It is just a handful of delusional posters on this site who think opening Portage and Main will bring instant prosperity to Winnipeg, and tear down the last remaining barrier that will finally make the city live up to it's one time reputation of "Chicago of the North."

You have to keep in mind that the people who post here are mainly either city planners, elitists, or both. It seems many of the poster here were raised in upper class families, who paid their way for everything well into their 20s. At least that's the impression I get for some of the forum members contempt for the average citizen of Winnipeg.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

You are comparing the US Freeway system (i.e NYC, LA, Chicago, Minneapolis, Seattle, etc) that destroyed communities, divided groups of people, and caused irreparable harm to their respective cities, to a simple intersection in Winnipeg. Are you for real?

I said the pervasive ideal that car traffic is the only priority which caused that action is the same ideal that justified this one. Nobody cared about what happened to those communities, just like nobody cares about how the barriers affect downtown.

Im not sure where you read the results were the same. That was your extrapolation.

If you can’t see the effect banning people from the intersection has had I’m not sure what to say.

I am totally for real.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by Andy6

It's interesting that in this post 9/11 age, barriers of various ugly shapes and sizes are now pretty common in many cities' downtown areas. So the "In Winnipeg, we actually have barriers at a major downtown intersection!" argument has begun to lose its shaming rhetorical force.

I would agree with you if there were a way to perform a trial run safely and relatively cheaply. Why not focus on figuring out how that could be accomplished - if it could be, and the sky didn't fall, then who could disagree with a plan to go ahead with the full project?

I still think it might make more sense to improve the aesthetics of the existing configuration and focus on creating attractive and easily accessible entrances to the underground. Maybe do something imaginative down there instead.

What other major urban intersection has concrete barriers to repel people?

The fear of absolute life ending grid lock is so overblown. I just don’t get it. It has become so much larger than life. 95% of the time there is so little traffic at that intersection. Why not focus on changing how people get to where they are going for that other 5%. Different routes. Different modes. There is this completely false I mage that it’s gridlock all day there.

It handles so many cars because it’s built to do that. People will change their habits if the conditions change. That’s how it always works. There won’t be gridlock forever. People will find different ways through. Traffic is like water.

They should start by banning semi trailers. That would help reduce traffic.

[trueviking]

I would not dismiss the opening of portage and main as symbolic. It is very much more than that. The negative impact on the area can not be denied. Bringing people back is the only way to change it. I can tell you very clearly that every property owner at the intersection and many in the adjacent area are ready to invest, and bringing people back will be the catalyst that starts it.

We will look back in ten years in disbelief about this debate. All over traffic for ten hours a week, that will figure itself out in a few months of opening.

[trueviking]

Maybe they should start by not letting people cross for those ten hours a week. Then gradually phase that out. Just to reduce the fears of people who only care about getting out of downtown as quickly as possible.

[scryer]

Wait, all of this over taking down some 5ft concrete walls?

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

Dude, it's an INTERSECTION. You are treating it like Winnipeg just won a contract with Amazon. It's not that important, believe it or not.

Well a good amount of people do believe it's important, including the mayor, who campaigned on the promise of opening it. Even the owners of the buildings on the corner who originally lobbied the government into closing it are on board. It's like everyone bought the bullshit they spewed to get it closed in the first place and now accepts it as gospel truth.

[Jets4Life]

Have you ever seen the South Park episode where they make fun of elitists from San Francisco? This thread reminds me of that episode...

[Jets4Life]

Postage and Main....