Toronto seizes 2nd spot in annual ranking of cities..

[Waterlooson]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Mexico City is just one city so I wouldn't base your conclusion on that.

Nor was I ... I'm in Cabo San Lucas. Infrastructure like water (everyone has to have their own pila), and garbage disposal is primitive here.... I live along the trans-peninsular corridor, and they don't even have a sewer line that we can connect to... everyone just has a primitive septic system... not far from the wells. So to compare Canada's infrastructure to that of a country like Mexico is over the top for sure. And this place will be Mexico's show place next year with the G20 meeting.

Btw, Mexico isn't considered the 3rd world and the developing world and 3rd world aren't the same thing. The developing world usually refers to countries like China, Turkey, Malaysia, Brazil, even South Korea. '3rd world' is an obsolete term these days and largely falling out of use. It's a condescending arrogant term used by rich nations in reference to desperately poor nations they consider below them.

Well that's your opinion... I hear Mexicans (beyond the elites) refer to Mexico as "3rd world" all the time... I mean do you live here or what? We can't hide the truth about a place with political correctness.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Waterlooson

Nor was I ... I'm in Cabo San Lucas. Infrastructure like water (everyone has to have their own pila), and garbage disposal is primitive here.... I live along the trans-peninsular corridor, and they don't even have a sewer line that we can connect to... everyone just has a primitive septic system... not far from the wells. So to compare Canada's infrastructure to that of a country like Mexico is over the top for sure. And this place will be Mexico's show place next year with the G20 meeting.

Likewise, one country isn't a good basis to form conclusions. You're going to extrapolate your experiences in Mexico to every other developing country on the planet? Really???

Originally Posted by Waterlooson

Well that's your opinion... I hear Mexicans (beyond the elites) refer to Mexico as "3rd world" all the time... I mean do you live here or what?

And once again, you're forming your opinion based on a Mexican experience. Since when do Mexicans represent global opinion? Call someone 3rd world in most poor countries and they'll likely view you with contempt. No, I don't live in Mexico.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Bdog

While I don't deny that the infrastructure deficit in Canada is extensive and mounting, it is absolutely ludricrous to suggest that our infrastructure is on par with that of developing countries (except maybe in certain remote areas and reserves).

Sure Bangkok, Beijing, Shanghai & Istanbul have fancy new transit systems, multi-lane freeways, and brand new waterworks projects. But, step out of the main cores of any developing country's mega-city, and what you'll find is something most Canadian's could never even imagine (the small cities and rural areas are even worse):

Scarce running water facilities. No sewage (just streetside gutters). Informal garbage disposal (in the gutters, or burnt in informal dumps). Dirt roads with pot-holes that would even seem foreign in early-April Winnipeg. Intermittant electricity (for those areas lucky enough to be served). I could go on and on.

Don't equate downtown Mexico City, Kuala Lampur, or Capetown as proxies for the developing world experience in terms of infrastructure...

They're surely not proxies for the rest of their respective countries, but I find Canadians are being overly smug. Our infrastructure is crumbling and lots of cities in developing countries are rapidly catching up, and in some cases have shot by us.

Beijing's subway? It's better than anything in Canada. Their airport's better, their intercity rail is better, their port is better, and their highway/roads will surely be better in the not too distant future. This is a developing country and very poor by Canadian standards.

Comparing our infrastructure to that in some of these 'developing' countries is a worthwhile discussion. Ours infrastructure is better in many areas, but we're also falling behind in many other areas. Like it or not, people do compare things like downtown Toronto to downtown Beijing.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by isaidso

They're surely not proxies for the rest of their respective countries, but I find Canadians are being overly smug. Our infrastructure is crumbling and lots of cities in developing countries are rapidly catching up, and in some cases have shot by us.

Beijing's subway? It's better than anything in Canada. Their airport's better, their intercity rail is better, their port is better, and their highway/roads will surely be better in the not too distant future. This is a developing country and very poor by Canadian standards.

Comparing our infrastructure to that in some of these 'developing' countries is a worthwhile discussion. Ours infrastructure is better in many areas, but we're also falling behind in many other areas. Like it or not, people do compare things like downtown Toronto to downtown Beijing.

Like I said before, I'll be the first to critique Canada's mounting infrastructure defecit. However, I think you're confusing "developing countries' infrastructure" with "developing countries' mega-city's core's infrastructure". Beijing's downtown and central city is up there with any city in the world, no question. However, this doesn't represent Beijing as a whole very accurately at all, and (without question) doesn't represent Chinese cities as a whole. It's an anomaly. Besides the relatively rich East Coast Chinese cities, the interior has generally horrible infrastructure.

Anywhere in Canada (except, as I mentioned, extremely remote areas and some reserves) has roads, sanitation systems, running water, electricity. One doesn't drive to the outskirts of Montreal and find tent cities where people are urinating in gutters and burning their garbage in ditches. You don't worry in Vancouver that if you have access to electricity, it's only on intermittantly for 4 or 5 hours a day. Rural Saskatchewanians don't have to walk 2 kms to the nearest well for water, and their gravel farm roads are in much better chape than what you'd find in say, rural South America...

It's easy to watch the 2008 Summer Olympics and say, "Wow, they've really surpassed Canada" or look at select infrastructure projects in Brazil/India/Etc and say "Wow, what a great subway system/airport". But these don't represent the country as a whole in any significant way. If you want to compare infra in developing vs. developed core cities, you definitely have a case. Countrywide, not a chance...

[Doady]

This is the Rob Ford Effect. Toronto has improved immensely already in the short time he has taken power.

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by Doady

This is the Rob Ford Effect. Toronto has improved immensely already in the short time he has taken power.

What?? What exactly has he done to improve Toronto since he took office? Cancel a funded transit plan in exchange for one that costs more and serves less?

This is almost 100% Miller's doing that has brought it up so much.

[BretttheRiderFan]

Look at the least developed major cities in Canada for infrastructure

Then look at the least developed major cities in China or India or Mexico for infrastructure

Saying "Beijing subway is better than anything in Canada" may be true, but doesn't mean China is better developed than Canada in any way shape or form

[Waterlooson]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Likewise, one country isn't a good basis to form conclusions. You're going to extrapolate your experiences in Mexico to every other developing country on the planet? Really???

As though Mexico is a shabby representative of the 3rd world (or the developing world as you euphemistically like you say). Mexico is better off than most 3rd world countries, and that's a fact... it's even a member of the G20... Next year's meeting will be held right here!

Sidewalks are uneven, lack of water treatment facilities, unreliable power (until a few years ago), water-main leaks all over the place, absence of recycling, garbage dumped wherever, traffic lights not working, wait for telephone service 2 years long (until recently), no storm sewers... get 2 inches of rain and the downtown is flooded out.

Canada's infrastructure is vastly better than most 3rd world countries... and better than any of them.

[Waterlooson]

Originally Posted by Bdog

Like I said before, I'll be the first to critique Canada's mounting infrastructure defecit. However, I think you're confusing "developing countries' infrastructure" with "developing countries' mega-city's core's infrastructure". Beijing's downtown and central city is up there with any city in the world, no question. However, this doesn't represent Beijing as a whole very accurately at all, and (without question) doesn't represent Chinese cities as a whole. It's an anomaly. Besides the relatively rich East Coast Chinese cities, the interior has generally horrible infrastructure.

Anywhere in Canada (except, as I mentioned, extremely remote areas and some reserves) has roads, sanitation systems, running water, electricity. One doesn't drive to the outskirts of Montreal and find tent cities where people are urinating in gutters and burning their garbage in ditches. You don't worry in Vancouver that if you have access to electricity, it's only on intermittantly for 4 or 5 hours a day. Rural Saskatchewanians don't have to walk 2 kms to the nearest well for water, and their gravel farm roads are in much better chape than what you'd find in say, rural South America...

It's easy to watch the 2008 Summer Olympics and say, "Wow, they've really surpassed Canada" or look at select infrastructure projects in Brazil/India/Etc and say "Wow, what a great subway system/airport". But these don't represent the country as a whole in any significant way. If you want to compare infra in developing vs. developed core cities, you definitely have a case. Countrywide, not a chance...

Spot on... Yours sound like the comments of a person who actually lives in one of these "developing" (or 3rd world) countries vs. someone who just has visited as a tourist... like making a big deal about Beijing's airport... to the average guy living there, the airport doesn't mean a damned thing! It's the mundane things - like sewer lines that do.

[habfanman]

Spot on! So we've established that Canada, one of the richest nations in the world, compares favourably- infrastructure wise- to most 3rd world and developing nations.

-Plan The Parade-

Too bad we look like shite compared to most other 1st world nations. It's embarrassing, quite frankly.

But hey, someone who's never been here fed some data into a computer and we came in second! (let's hope they never actually show up and witness for themselves:

"What's that then?" "Why that's a jauntily-angled wooden telegraph pole. Don't you have those where you're from?" "No, we buried ours 30 years ago" "Oh come now! Next you'll be telling me that you've invented a replacement for the mechanical subway token machine!" "Well, actually.."

[Waterlooson]

^^LOL... I agree with you.

[Ramako]

Originally Posted by habfanman

Spot on! So we've established that Canada, one of the richest nations in the world, compares favourably- infrastructure wise- to most 3rd world and developing nations.

-Plan The Parade-

Too bad we look like shite compared to most other 1st world nations. It's embarrassing, quite frankly.

But hey, someone who's never been here fed some data into a computer and we came in second! (let's hope they never actually show up and witness for themselves:

"What's that then?" "Why that's a jauntily-angled wooden telegraph pole. Don't you have those where you're from?" "No, we buried ours 30 years ago" "Oh come now! Next you'll be telling me that you've invented a replacement for the mechanical subway token machine!" "Well, actually.."

Do these relatively minor, albeit legitimate, quibbles really affect the livability, crime, pollution, health, education, innovation levels of a city? Why don't you read the actual report instead of dismissing it off-hand because it doesn't conform to your pre-conceived notions?

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by habfanman

"What's that then?" "Why that's a jauntily-angled wooden telegraph pole. Don't you have those where you're from?" "No, we buried ours 30 years ago" "Oh come now! Next you'll be telling me that you've invented a replacement for the mechanical subway token machine!" "Well, actually.."

For the record, this is in Paris:


Source: forumer Minato Ku


And this is pretty much any street in Tokyo:


Source: forumer Kilgore-Trout


And while they might offend the orderly sensibilities of the more anal among us, as Ramako nicely put it - it in no way compromises the "livability" or influence of a city.

[habfanman]

Originally Posted by Ramako

Do these relatively minor, albeit legitimate, quibbles really affect the livability, crime, pollution, health, education, innovation levels of a city? Why don't you read the actual report instead of dismissing it off-hand because it doesn't conform to your pre-conceived notions?

lol! You think that's it? Telegraph poles and subway tokens? There are 100's of other fails, everything from bike lane fails to massive public transit fails. And although our crime rate compares favourably to the U.S. (the only barometer which is ever used in Canada), we even fail at that compared to most other 1st world nations. Pollution, health, education, innovation? Spend a few months in Northern Europe and get back to me on that. I speak two languages and I feel like an idiot most of the time here because that's all I speak.

There are virtually no signs that Canada even exists in the rest of the world because we hardly create anything. We sell the raw materials to countries who actually do create things. "You know that table you have there? I'll betcha that's Canadian wood! And by the way, your Porsche is probably running on Canadian gas haha!" "Yes, but the machinery you use cut the trees and extract the goo was designed and built here." "Yeah, well.. we assemble cars.. GM and Chryslers!"

Get your head out of the sand. Just because some bankers fed banker data into a computer and we came up banker second.. it doesn't actually compare to being somewhere and judging what you see with your own eyes. We're in a lot rougher shape than many people are willing to admit.

And I won't even get into our childish anti-fun laws. They may be even more embarrassing than anything else.

[jmt18325]

Yes, a country that consistently list amongst the best in the world is actually absolutely terrible...because you say so. Get a grip. There is a reason Canada does well. This isn't nearly the shit hole you make it out to be. Are things perfect? No. Are they better than almost anywhere else in the world? Yes. Are there infrastructure differences between Canada and some other countries, all of which are far more densely populated and most of which have far more in the way of government intervention? Yes. Does that make this a bad place? No.

BTW, Canada has industries outside of resources. I don't know if you realize this, but we still do a great deal of manufacturing here. We also have an aerospace industry that is large for our economy, and there are many Canadian biomedical and technological breakthroughs that happen every year. There are many, many examples. Financial services comes to mind. This country is far more than you want to make it out to be...and Toronto is a great city. So, like I said, get a grip.

[habfanman]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

For the record, this is in Paris:


Source: forumer Minato Ku


And this is pretty much any street in Tokyo:


Source: forumer Kilgore-Trout


And while they might offend the orderly sensibilities of the more anal among us, as Ramako nicely put it - it in no way compromises the "livability" or influence of a city.

Bravo internet traveller! Just google "other place fails" in order to prove that your fail isn't really a fail after all. Or at least it's only a "shared fail", which is OK, aim for the bottom.

Although I've never been there, so I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure that we're looking at a Tokyo alley and not a street. Why don't you google that so we'll know for sure. Or go there (hey! there's an idea!)

[Waterlooson]

I do feel that people need to stop harping about Canada's development of its natural resources... that takes research and brain power to develop as well. Natural resource exploitation is even more important to Australia... and they are getting rich on that... no one seems to ever take a shot at Australia for it.

Canada does have world-class research facilities in some areas.... Just in my hometown of Waterloo, Perimeter Institute will soon have the largest research staff in the world in fundamental theoretical physics Waterloo also has one of the world's leading facilities in nanotechnology and quantum computing ... superior to Boston's MIT.

[Metro-One]

I have lived in Japan before and have been to Osaka, Kobe, Kyoto, Hiroshima, Tokyo, etc... and I can tell you that nearly all of their electricity is above ground, and that includes running alongside and over the main streets. There are only a few select areas where they will be buried.

[Ramako]

Originally Posted by habfanman

lol! You think that's it? Telegraph poles and subway tokens? There are 100's of other fails, everything from bike lane fails to massive public transit fails. And although our crime rate compares favourably to the U.S. (the only barometer which is ever used in Canada), we even fail at that compared to most other 1st world nations. Pollution, health, education, innovation? Spend a few months in Northern Europe and get back to me on that. I speak two languages and I feel like an idiot most of the time here because that's all I speak.

I could produce countless lists, reports and studies from various organizations, commercial or otherwise, that rate Toronto and/or Canada very highly in terms of health care, education, pollution (not counting Alberta), crime, wealth, stability, opportunity, livability and much more.

You can produce vague anecdotes.

If you want to believe that Toronto and/or Canada is a shithole, that's fine. It's not worth my time to argue with ignorance.

[habfanman]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I have lived in Japan before and have been to Osaka, Kobe, Kyoto, Hiroshima, Tokyo, etc... and I can tell you that nearly all of their electricity is above ground, and that includes running alongside and over the main streets. There are only a few select areas where they will be buried.

That's not a valid excuse for us not to bury ours. Unless you think that we should emulate the worst fail that every country has to offer.