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  #581  
Old Posted May 19, 2018, 3:31 AM
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I dislike the phrase "toxic masculinity" as well because of the stereotypical images of its users it brings up, but I do think it's a thing. But not just in treating women poorly, but having difficult expectations of other men. Not everyone can be confident or strong, yet masculine culture expects men to be, and ridicules those that aren't. I think the ignoring of male victims of abuse is just another manifestation of this expectation. I don't think it's any different from the pressure on women to be physically attractive. Realizing this is what's made me understand just how brave the first women to stand up for themselves were. It takes a lot to question societal norms. But it needs to be done. Self-acceptance, and outward respect, should be every decent person's right.
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  #582  
Old Posted May 19, 2018, 3:38 AM
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
I dislike the phrase "toxic masculinity" as well because of the stereotypical images of its users it brings up, but I do think it's a thing. But not just in treating women poorly, but having difficult expectations of other men. Not everyone can be confident or strong, yet masculine culture expects men to be, and ridicules those that aren't. I think the ignoring of male victims of abuse is just another manifestation of this expectation. I don't think it's any different from the pressure on women to be physically attractive. Realizing this is what's made me understand just how brave the first women to stand up for themselves were. It takes a lot to question societal norms. But it needs to be done. Self-acceptance, and outward respect, should be every decent person's right.
Well said.
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  #583  
Old Posted May 19, 2018, 4:15 AM
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  #584  
Old Posted May 19, 2018, 5:09 AM
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
I do think it's a thing. But not just in treating women poorly, but having difficult expectations of other men. Not everyone can be confident or strong, yet masculine culture expects men to be, and ridicules those that aren't. I think the ignoring of male victims of abuse is just another manifestation of this expectation. I don't think it's any different from the pressure on women to be physically attractive. Realizing this is what's made me understand just how brave the first women to stand up for themselves were. It takes a lot to question societal norms. But it needs to be done. Self-acceptance, and outward respect, should be every decent person's right.
That's exactly what I was trying to say just much better worded.
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  #585  
Old Posted May 19, 2018, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
I dislike the phrase "toxic masculinity" as well because of the stereotypical images of its users it brings up, but I do think it's a thing. But not just in treating women poorly, but having difficult expectations of other men. Not everyone can be confident or strong, yet masculine culture expects men to be, and ridicules those that aren't. I think the ignoring of male victims of abuse is just another manifestation of this expectation. I don't think it's any different from the pressure on women to be physically attractive. Realizing this is what's made me understand just how brave the first women to stand up for themselves were. It takes a lot to question societal norms. But it needs to be done. Self-acceptance, and outward respect, should be every decent person's right.
Eloquently put and I agree with everything you said as it's inherently obvious. The problem is, traditional masculinity has two sides: the flashy conquering hero (more recently depicted as the villain) as well as the steadfast provider and father (recently maligned, ridiculed as an idiot and generally forgotten).

The father was forgotten first: this is an outcome of societal processes which have rewarded risky behaviour and assoholism for generations now, turning working class fathers into losers who go nowhere but down. Their hard working mentality being the very definition of chumpitude. Many men have responded by adopting behaviours that lead to better chances of success in this society/economy: douchery.

Douchery and assholism inevitably lead to a backlash and the behaviour has been labeled toxic masculinity. Now even if most men are not this way or only rarely exhibit such behaviour, the successful ones (those who matter) often do, so in the bubble world of the 1% that means basically everyone. As a result now all men are labeled and those hard working providers left behind by the economy and ridiculed for their stupidity are becoming ever more resentful indeed.

Things are coming to a head very quickly. Change is on it's way and it probably won't be pretty.
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  #586  
Old Posted May 19, 2018, 6:20 PM
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Originally Posted by JM5 View Post
Eloquently put and I agree with everything you said as it's inherently obvious. The problem is, traditional masculinity has two sides: the flashy conquering hero (more recently depicted as the villain) as well as the steadfast provider and father (recently maligned, ridiculed as an idiot and generally forgotten).

The father was forgotten first: this is an outcome of societal processes which have rewarded risky behaviour and assoholism for generations now, turning working class fathers into losers who go nowhere but down. Their hard working mentality being the very definition of chumpitude. Many men have responded by adopting behaviours that lead to better chances of success in this society/economy: douchery.

Douchery and assholism inevitably lead to a backlash and the behaviour has been labeled toxic masculinity. Now even if most men are not this way or only rarely exhibit such behaviour, the successful ones (those who matter) often do, so in the bubble world of the 1% that means basically everyone. As a result now all men are labeled and those hard working providers left behind by the economy and ridiculed for their stupidity are becoming ever more resentful indeed.

Things are coming to a head very quickly. Change is on it's way and it probably won't be pretty.
I actually agree with this, and have said it before too, albeit more diplomatically. What you call douchery is what I would call men who exploit the confidence and strength they have to hurt others. These are the men who are largely behind the (justified) conversation around gender equality. But in the process, the weaker men who are bullied at school or work are likewise thrown into the category of "oppressor," when really they can be just as victimized as anyone.
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  #587  
Old Posted May 19, 2018, 6:55 PM
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The straight white male is the most under-attack demographic today.
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  #588  
Old Posted May 19, 2018, 6:56 PM
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Originally Posted by GlassCity View Post
I actually agree with this, and have said it before too, albeit more diplomatically. What you call douchery is what I would call men who exploit the confidence and strength they have to hurt others. These are the men who are largely behind the (justified) conversation around gender equality. But in the process, the weaker men who are bullied at school or work are likewise thrown into the category of "oppressor," when really they can be just as victimized as anyone.
Sure, but those who seek to bring about change are casting a net far wider than they should. It's not masculinity that's at fault. It's the legal and regulatory structures that protect those who have the means to take major financial risks from suffering the real consequences when things don't go their way. This imbalance promotes one side of masculinity over the other. This isn't men's fault at all, they are just using the side of masculinity that is currently working for them and neglecting the side that is not rewarded or respected.

The real change will not come from the left. They are making things MORE imbalanced than they already are.
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  #589  
Old Posted May 19, 2018, 9:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JM5 View Post
Sure, but those who seek to bring about change are casting a net far wider than they should. It's not masculinity that's at fault. It's the legal and regulatory structures that protect those who have the means to take major financial risks from suffering the real consequences when things don't go their way. This imbalance promotes one side of masculinity over the other. This isn't men's fault at all, they are just using the side of masculinity that is currently working for them and neglecting the side that is not rewarded or respected.

The real change will not come from the left. They are making things MORE imbalanced than they already are.
With regards to legal and regulatory structures, maybe, but I'm speaking more broadly than just business success.
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  #590  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 12:20 AM
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Masculinity is a wonderful thing to see in action.

Masculinity is confidence and power (held in check).

Masculinity is assertiveness and optimism.

Masculinity is fairness and honesty.

Masculinity is conscientiousness and efficiency.

Masculinity is bloody hard work!

It's taking on responsibilities that you don't necessarily want. It's about suffering through hard times stoically (though not alone). It's about doing the right thing in the moment but also in the long run. It's about identifying your problems and those of people around you and setting things right. No wonder so many young men are dropping out and avoiding this mess!

The difficulties inherent in becoming a man are completely and totally lost on most modern feminist types. They know little about men because they haven't seen many good men in action. Or if they have, they're confused by it. They're unable to identify what they're seeing and assume it's bad, or toxic, as they say. They believe we need more femininity. Wrong! It's been tried and now we're dealing with the aftermath.

We're letting men down. They're dropping out of society in huge numbers. If this continues, we're done for. Men must step up and help each other out. And women need to step back and let us solve this riddle of masculinity. If that happens, everyone wins.
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  #591  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce View Post
Masculinity is a wonderful thing to see in action.

Masculinity is confidence and power (held in check).

Masculinity is assertiveness and optimism.

Masculinity is fairness and honesty.

Masculinity is conscientiousness and efficiency.

Masculinity is bloody hard work!

It's taking on responsibilities that you don't necessarily want. It's about suffering through hard times stoically (though not alone). It's about doing the right thing in the moment but also in the long run. It's about identifying your problems and those of people around you and setting things right. No wonder so many young men are dropping out and avoiding this mess!

The difficulties inherent in becoming a man are completely and totally lost on most modern feminist types. They know little about men because they haven't seen many good men in action. Or if they have, they're confused by it. They're unable to identify what they're seeing and assume it's bad, or toxic, as they say. They believe we need more femininity. Wrong! It's been tried and now we're dealing with the aftermath.

We're letting men down. They're dropping out of society in huge numbers. If this continues, we're done for. Men must step up and help each other out. And women need to step back and let us solve this riddle of masculinity. If that happens, everyone wins.
But that's the thing - you're listing all of these qualities that are supposedly inherent to masculinity, but what if you're a man without those qualities? Are you less of a man, and by extension a person?

Or do you think that people who lack these qualities are people that have been let down somehow? And if so, by who?
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  #592  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 1:13 AM
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Double post

Last edited by O-tacular; May 20, 2018 at 2:08 AM.
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  #593  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 1:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce View Post
Masculinity is a wonderful thing to see in action.

Masculinity is confidence and power (held in check).

Masculinity is assertiveness and optimism.

Masculinity is fairness and honesty.

Masculinity is conscientiousness and efficiency.

Masculinity is bloody hard work!

It's taking on responsibilities that you don't necessarily want. It's about suffering through hard times stoically (though not alone). It's about doing the right thing in the moment but also in the long run. It's about identifying your problems and those of people around you and setting things right. No wonder so many young men are dropping out and avoiding this mess!

The difficulties inherent in becoming a man are completely and totally lost on most modern feminist types. They know little about men because they haven't seen many good men in action. Or if they have, they're confused by it. They're unable to identify what they're seeing and assume it's bad, or toxic, as they say. They believe we need more femininity. Wrong! It's been tried and now we're dealing with the aftermath.

We're letting men down. They're dropping out of society in huge numbers. If this continues, we're done for. Men must step up and help each other out. And women need to step back and let us solve this riddle of masculinity. If that happens, everyone wins.
I recommend you do some reading about different personality types. Your criteria excludes entire groups of people. To say nothing of the fact that you believe men should be ‘stoic’ which is one of the major reasons so many suffer the effects of sexual abuse in silence. Your entire definition of masculinity is a cliched caricature.

Last edited by O-tacular; May 20, 2018 at 2:10 AM.
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  #594  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 3:27 AM
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With regards to legal and regulatory structures, maybe, but I'm speaking more broadly than just business success.
Yes, but other means of expressing competitive aggression are already illegal in today's world. Men now express their competitive urges in the field of business where this is still encouraged and seemingly the rewards are greater than any potential risk. Aggressive competition used to have a very real and useful place in society. In the stone age it was mostly used for hunting and to ward off predators, only sometimes against other people. In later times, wars and campaigns used to be a yearly reality. Men had a chance to make their fortune through raids in foreign lands but would often also be called on to defend their own home against invaders. In many places, even today preteen boys form neighborhood gangs made up of whoever happens to live in a given geographic area and fight other groups over playground areas, stolen toys or whatever else they happen to value, all before they grow older and are initiated into more serious criminal activities by older friends and relatives.

Our current society is trying to effectively breed or train these instincts out of men because in today's world they are seen as medieval and unnecessary. These efforts have worked to a great degree but the instincts continue to find new outlets as above. Another problem is that other societies try to control these instincts to a significantly lesser extent, accepting them as natural and allowing them to be expressed under certain circumstances. If men in our society have aggression bred out of them, they cannot (rather, will not) resist men who don't. They'll just walk away from the fight as they have been taught - even if the fight isn't physical in nature. This is because it's the drive to enforce your will that's being bred out, not the ability to commit physical acts of violence.
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  #595  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 3:37 AM
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I simply do not see the supposed crisis being described occuring.
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  #596  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 4:13 AM
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I simply do not see the supposed crisis being described occuring.
Okay, so what you're saying is toxic masculinity is not based on any semblance of reality? I think people who are saying it's a problem are referring to something real, they just don't understand what it is they're really dealing with.
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  #597  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 4:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce View Post
Masculinity is a wonderful thing to see in action.

Masculinity is confidence and power (held in check).

Masculinity is assertiveness and optimism.

Masculinity is fairness and honesty.

Masculinity is conscientiousness and efficiency.

Masculinity is bloody hard work!

It's taking on responsibilities that you don't necessarily want. It's about suffering through hard times stoically (though not alone). It's about doing the right thing in the moment but also in the long run. It's about identifying your problems and those of people around you and setting things right. No wonder so many young men are dropping out and avoiding this mess!

The difficulties inherent in becoming a man are completely and totally lost on most modern feminist types. They know little about men because they haven't seen many good men in action. Or if they have, they're confused by it. They're unable to identify what they're seeing and assume it's bad, or toxic, as they say. They believe we need more femininity. Wrong! It's been tried and now we're dealing with the aftermath.

We're letting men down. They're dropping out of society in huge numbers. If this continues, we're done for. Men must step up and help each other out. And women need to step back and let us solve this riddle of masculinity. If that happens, everyone wins.
I think the essence of masculinity as you have described is captured perfectly in this song:

Video Link


Be strong
Be hard
Resist temptation
Stick your hand in your eye
Close your fist
Resist
Walk on this line
Look straight ahead
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles
Be hard
Be strong
Be hard
Be hard
Hard
Hard

Come back for more
Come back
Come back
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles
Come back
Be hard
Be hard
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles

Come back
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles
Be hard
Be hard
Be hard
Hard
Hard
Hard
Hard
Be hard
Be hard
Be hard
Be hard
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles

Maybe if more young people listened to Swans, they would know what it really means to be a man, and men would not be facing extinction as they are now, as you have insightfully pointed out.
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  #598  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 7:15 AM
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Okay, so what you're saying is toxic masculinity is not based on any semblance of reality? I think people who are saying it's a problem are referring to something real, they just don't understand what it is they're really dealing with.
I’m not sure which side of the argument you’re on. I absolutely believe that toxic masculinity is real and that it poses a serious threat to society. What I was referring to was your fabricated scenario where we all become pacifists who surrender to mongoloid hordes of Ted Nugent assholes.

Feminism and the Left aren’t to blame for toxic masculinity. The biggest threat men face is the emotional deadening we endure as part of a society that tells us we can’t have feelings because those are somehow feminine. To say nothing of the strong man narrative that tells us men can never be sexually abused or raped by women. The same one that demands we be stoic and self reliant rather than getting help or admitting there’s a problem. And how about blind optimism? That if we simply choose to move forward we can leave what happened in the past.

Last edited by O-tacular; May 20, 2018 at 7:40 AM.
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  #599  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 7:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Doady View Post
I think the essence of masculinity as you have described is captured perfectly in this song:

Video Link


Be strong
Be hard
Resist temptation
Stick your hand in your eye
Close your fist
Resist
Walk on this line
Look straight ahead
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles
Be hard
Be strong
Be hard
Be hard
Hard
Hard

Come back for more
Come back
Come back
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles
Come back
Be hard
Be hard
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles

Come back
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles
Be hard
Be hard
Be hard
Hard
Hard
Hard
Hard
Be hard
Be hard
Be hard
Be hard
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles
Flex your muscles

Maybe if more young people listened to Swans, they would know what it really means to be a man, and men would not be facing extinction as they are now, as you have insightfully pointed out.
I think they would also benefit from a good dose of Rambo movies in health class for healthy male role models.

Last edited by O-tacular; May 20, 2018 at 7:31 AM.
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  #600  
Old Posted May 20, 2018, 1:32 PM
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Originally Posted by O-tacular View Post
I’m not sure which side of the argument you’re on. I absolutely believe that toxic masculinity is real and that it poses a serious threat to society. What I was referring to was your fabricated scenario where we all become pacifists who surrender to mongoloid hordes of Ted Nugent assholes.

Feminism and the Left aren’t to blame for toxic masculinity. The biggest threat men face is the emotional deadening we endure as part of a society that tells us we can’t have feelings because those are somehow feminine. To say nothing of the strong man narrative that tells us men can never be sexually abused or raped by women. The same one that demands we be stoic and self reliant rather than getting help or admitting there’s a problem. And how about blind optimism? That if we simply choose to move forward we can leave what happened in the past.
You see these things from an inherently feminist/victim mentality viewpoint because that's how society taught you. It's not at all that you're wrong, it's that you need to change your perspective on how you look at these truths.

Stop separating victors from victims for a minute and realise we are all victims, even those who bullied and/or abused you, because everyone (even Trump) has faced scenarios in his life where he lost and was powerless to do anything about it. Once you accept that, you realise that life is hopeless and everyone of us is simply a frail being at the mercy of far greater events/forces we can never hope to control. You may become depressed by this realisation.

The next step is to realise that even though this is the reality of the world, you are still alive and you wish to continue on with your life. You start to see your abusers as human beings, who should be punished as a corrective or deterrent to them and other would be abusers and not necessarily as any form of revenge or compensation for your loss. This is still a lost/confused stage of being because you're living and no longer feeling a victim but you lack meaning, purpose and confidence. This will likely change at some point.

Something will come along at that you will want bad enough to almost fight for. Maybe it's a job or a girl/guy. Maybe a toxicly masculine individual will get that job or girl/guy but this time you have no excuses because he's just a guy who faced many challenges in life just like you, although maybe those challenges were different than yours. You feel like a victim again for a day or two because you're so enlightened yet still unsuccessful. At some point you look at why he was successful and realise that what separates the two of you are simply actions/behaviours. He's not better or smarter or more handsome, he simply DID some things you did not. Maybe he's confident and you're not. You decide that next time an opportunity like this comes your way, you will do things differently.

The lesson is that despite the tragedy of the world, we can all adopt behavioural strategies that are more conducive to success than others. Stoicism, optimism and strength are such behavioural strategies. They are an illusion meant to instill confidence in those you are trying to impress and intimidate those you're competing with. Those who adopt these strategies become marginally more successful than those who don't, which in turn builds optimism and self confidence in a self-reinforcing way. After a while, it becomes natural to accept failure as a momentary setback normal to the course of everyone's life instead of a life altering trauma. It becomes clear that dwelling on loss is futile and wasteful because opportunity is all around you and you're just wasting it.

The current narrative looks at masculinity from a feminine perspective and rightly calls out the mask of bravado for being a mask. The problem is, the behaviour strategies really do lead men to a feeling of first of all purpose (the goal that initially sets you on the path) and later happiness, confidence and accomplishment. Whether gay or straight, I believe a great majority of men benefit from adopting these strategies because these are evolved behaviours: those ancients who adopted them survived and thrived in a cruel world and became our ancestors, others did not.

It's your choice: be a victim forever or decide it's not worth your time.
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