Lister Block | ? | 6 fl | Renovation

[raisethehammer]

thanks for that, but the last thing I'm worried about in downtown Hamilton is lack of parking. for pete's sake.

[realcity]

What I'm concerned with is not chattels, fixtures and baseboard (already removed) but the design/layout of the hallways and individual offices. That's what will be destroyed with open office space.

Granted some things will have to change with residential considerations, but I think they could keep the hallways and perhaps blend two former offices to make one 900 sq ft apartment.

[raisethehammer]

why would the city allow these guys to "renovate" it, and then buy it for $25 mil?? the city will be sitting on a white elephant. if there is any demand at all for this type of office space, LIUNA would be keeping it and renting it out themselves.
Who the heck is the city going to find as a tenant?? I assume, only themselves.
Nobody else will pay the insane lease for $9.00 sq.ft. cubicles. the city should have these guys renovate it into apartments, and then city housing can become the landlord. we don't need more shite office space, especially in such a beauty of a building.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Given the success of prior condo conversions in the city (SunLife, Pigott, and Chateau Royale are all just a bit up the road), and the increased demand for condos of late, there would be little difficulty in finding buyers.

Sunlife and Pigott were done 20 years ago. The CR has sold a total of 89 out of 199 units (a failure) to date. When I went to look at units last year I was told there was a shortage of parking space and they only offer 1 spot for first come first served. There is not enough parking at the CR to provide at least one space per unit.

Corelofts did well, but they also had more than enough parking in the existing garage thanks to Bell Canada and their tendancy to overbuild, a least 2 per unit.

The folks with the wealth tend to buy larger units in more upscale buildings and they usually have cars and demand parking, an indoor car wash, etc. I have yet to meet a professional who prefers a bus pass to a BMW.

[SteelTown]

Lister deal lives again, says Eisenberger

The city's deal to restore the Lister Block is alive again.

The mayor and developers were both optimistic after a meeting yesterday to discuss the downtown landmark.

This deal is not dead, said Mayor Fred Eisenberger. There's still opportunity here.

The city walked away from the proposal earlier this week to lease the Lister Block for $37 a square foot. Council voted against a second opinion on the figures put forward by Labourers International Union of North America and Hi-Rise. Since then the partners have argued the city could buy the redeveloped property for a cheaper price.

Eisenberger said the developers plan to come back to the city with some new options and calculations.

Joe Mancinelli, vice-president of LIUNA, was optimistic they will still be able to meet the mid-March deadline to receive $7 million in provincial funding. I'm very pleased that things are back on track, he said, adding construction could start by the end of March.

[screenplaying]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

construction could start by the end of March.

[matt602]

Heh, I'll be utterly shocked if that becomes true.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

New York DOESN'T allow parking...you have to fight to get any spaces added to your project...in Hamilton it's the opposite...we demand it. We keep trying to act like Borington or Mississuaga instead of a real city.

New York City does allow parking, but there is a limit to the number of spaces allowed for each building within a part of Manhattan. You really cannot compare Hamilton to NYC/Manhattan.

As far as I know, pretty well all major office and residential buildings in Toronto have parking spaces. It would really be impractical to expect everyone to not use a car to get home or to work.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

I made this exact point when I spoke at the City Hall public meeting back in 2006 on the original 'replication' proposal. Unfortunately, the World Cup was being played and, with so many people speaking on the project, by the time I spoke Italy had taken the field and council's attention was diverted. Don't even think it made it into the minutes for that meeting.

I agree... it seems that Hamilton already has plenty of vacant office space, so this Lister space would really just add to the excess.

Building offices and condos is fine and dandy, but you need to find a way to attract businesses and residents to occupy them.

[raisethehammer]

finding residents for properly-built condos is easy. Real estate agents and architects get multiple calls a week from people looking for new units downtown.
That's why Mocryke brought Stinson here in the first place...he realized there was this demand not being met by local builders.

[HAMRetrofit]

There is definitely a market for well designed new condos in Hamilton. No one has stepped up with a project that raises the bar. Most of the projects are low caliber compared to what is available elsewhere in the GTA.

[realcity]

I also toured CR with the in-house travel agent, I was seriously looking for my mother. If the sales rate is such a failure, I have to blame most of that on the very poor -- correction -- EXTREMELY POOR sales job the agent did. I waited for 15-20 minutes until she arrived in the lobby, she rushed me around the hallways, opening doors, not saying anything. "here is bedroom, here is the kitchen, and here is the living room". etc. If I wanted to know anything, I had to ask her. And I wasn't even sure what to ask her.

The building is gorgeous inside, It's like living in a 5-star hotel, wonderful view, units are beautiful, location is perfect (if you're going to live in Hamilton, it doesn't get much better).

I don't the staff at Chateau know how to sell this building.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

There is definitely a market for well designed new condos in Hamilton. No one has stepped up with a project that raises the bar. Most of the projects are low caliber compared to what is available elsewhere in the GTA.

What's interesting is that we really havn't seen a truly 'net new' condominium development downtown recently with the exception of the building on Market St? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think what we are mostly seeing are renos.

I would like to see a propsal for a larger completely new project to see how it sells. The project should incorporate more living features such as short term car rental, gourmet kitchen demos and rental, catering, housekeeping, film screening rooms, etc.

BTW I wouldn't assume all GTA stuff is high caliber even though it's priced that way.

http://www.badcondo.com/

[raisethehammer]

lol...yea, nobody here is dumb enough to think that every single condo in GTA is high quality.
Plus, I'm looking more at downtown TO, then the suburban areas...they have many well-done projects that would be great in the Hammer.
Hopefully Stinson has the balls to pull one off.

[HAMRetrofit]

That seems to be what is missing the most...BALLS. If someone would just step up and build something completely new. Forget about the feux crap that keeps getting built and the crumby mouldering buildings that some try to pass off as historic. Build something new and sexy. It just might work.

[SteelTown]

I don't understand how buying the building is cheaper than leasing.

Leasing the building for 20 years is $37 sq feet or $53 million but buying at $25 million or $21's sq feet. Why the different I don't get it.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

I don't understand how buying the building is cheaper than leasing.

Leasing the building for 20 years is $37 sq feet or $53 million but buying at $25 million or $21's sq feet. Why the different I don't get it.

We really don't know much about the $37 figure. Is it a Net, Triple Net, or Gross lease?

I am thinking the purchase price will be a stripped down cost of the building not including taxes, maintenance, utilities, repairs, profit, etc.

[Goldfinger]

Originally Posted by HAMRetrofit

That seems to be what is missing the most...BALLS. If someone would just step up and build something completely new. Forget about the feux crap that keeps getting built and the crumby mouldering buildings that some try to pass off as historic. Build something new and sexy. It just might work.

I think Balls is important, but most important is money and lots of it. The security needed to secure TARION alone for a highrise condo can add up to almost 15% of the total project. Thats $4.5M on a $30M project just sitting there doing nothing. Highrise condos are considered to be one of the most high risk developments due to the default and failure rates.

More problematic are finding sources of money. With the credit meltdown in the U.S., the primary souce of financing for these types of projects (mezzanine and conduit) has dried up. Banks don't like financing these types of construction projects anywhere in Canada and are very selective, they require rock-solid track records and reasonable security. This is even the case in places like Vancouver with a strong proven market.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

I think Balls is important, but most important is money and lots of it. The security needed to secure TARION alone for a highrise condo can add up to almost 15% of the total project. Thats $4.5M on a $30M project just sitting there doing nothing. Highrise condos are considered to be one of the most high risk developments due to the default and failure rates.

More problematic are finding sources of money. With the credit meltdown in the U.S., the primary souce of financing for these types of projects (mezzanine and conduit) has dried up. Banks don't like financing these types of construction projects anywhere in Canada and are very selective, they require rock-solid track records and reasonable security. This is even the case in places like Vancouver with a strong proven market.

Good points. Nearly all financial services companies are smarting these days.

It seems that Harry Stinson has had major funding challenges for all of his projects to date. Goodness, the guy used to do late night infomercials to get small-time investors to pony up money for One King West, etc.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

I think Balls is important, but most important is money and lots of it. The security needed to secure TARION alone for a highrise condo can add up to almost 15% of the total project. Thats $4.5M on a $30M project just sitting there doing nothing. Highrise condos are considered to be one of the most high risk developments due to the default and failure rates.

More problematic are finding sources of money. With the credit meltdown in the U.S., the primary souce of financing for these types of projects (mezzanine and conduit) has dried up. Banks don't like financing these types of construction projects anywhere in Canada and are very selective, they require rock-solid track records and reasonable security. This is even the case in places like Vancouver with a strong proven market.

great points here....even Portland's market is really slowing (condo market).
there's much more to it than balls for sure...lol.