Lister Block | ? | 6 fl | Renovation

[flar]

Lister will be a more difficult restoration than most buildings because of the terra cotta parts. Too much of it is missing and I doubt there are many craftsmen who work with terra cotta any more, and the few that there are are probably very expensive. It would be a lot of work for somebody to make matching replacements. I could see them replacing all of it with some prefab terracotta tiles.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by Goldfinger

LIUNA has done 3 actually, their offices on Hughson St. and LIUNA Gardens were well done as well. The gardens were created from a gutted nightclub called El Morocco in the '70s.

I honestly think that LIUNA are the only guys who can pull a restoration off. They have a track record, access to a large and flexbile pool of labour and political muscle to get the province and feds (sometimes) to chip in.

When I look at the other recent larger complex restoration/rebuild attemps: Dundurn Lofts, Trinity Landing, Chateau Royal, those failures can be attributed to inexperience mostly. It is great to be in the business of restoring these things but it's ALOT harder than any of us can imagine.

'the only guys who can pull this off'??
I would take BBS Realty in a heartbeat - they own much of downtown and have done wonderful jobs on buildings such as the old Bank of Montreal, Hunter/James office building and are now working on a building across the street on Hunter at James.
BofMontreal might be the greatest reno this city has ever seen. I'm sure there are others around who we don't know about who could also do a wonderful reno job - I'm thinking of the folks who did the old Woolworths building and Right House.

[markbarbera]

Well put, RTH. Not only was the old BMO restoration the most successful of the list of reno is your post, it did not require any government intervention (i.e. $7 mil bailouts). A a matter of fact, very little public funds went into any of the other restorations. Also, the Foster Building can be added to the list of private restorations underway that will surely be a downtown success story.

As far as LIUNA goes, they are certainly not what I would call experts in restoration projects. Their previous restorations that Goldfinger mentioned were all small-scale, yet still they 'needed' cash from various levels of government to pull it off. The only thing LIUNA seems to excel at is extorting huge wads of cash from the public purse.

In other news, Stinson has finalized the sale of the Sapphire Tower site in Toronto for a cool $24 million, which covers most of the creditors claims against him in his March bankruptcy filing. Once this is behind him, he is free and clear to entertain new developments, and his eye is set on The Hammer. He has direct connections to foreign investors with deep pockets, and his new-found interst in Hamilton can only mean better times are ahead for our city.

LIUNA has obviously bitten off more than it can chew with Lister and Connaught. My advice would be to step aside and let the big boys take over the big jobs, and stick to the jobs you know!

[Goldfinger]

The BMO building was more of an indulgence for Gowlings than a business venture. They had significant cost overruns during the renos as well. It's a bit different when you are renovating for your own use as opposed to a business venture. Like building your own home, you will spend the money because it's your own.

With regards to BBS, they are a mickey mouse organization. All of their projects are bankrolled by a gentleman by the name of Marvin Barnett of Finer Space Inc.

I remember reading a quote from David Blanchard bitching about not being able to find any tenants for the Stelco building because he said it's too big for Hamilton and there are no companies left that would need that kind of space. Experienced guys from CBRE, Cushman & Wakefield or Colliers will find tenants. These are smart guys who don't talk that way, especially publicly.

[raisethehammer]

a mickey mouse organization that gets buildings renovated and occupied without robbing you and I in the process.

[raisethehammer]

POSSIBLE SALE OF LISTER AND CONNAUGHT??

http://900chml.com/news/news_local.c...news_local.cfm

[SteelTown]

I'll be listening at 11!

[raisethehammer]

Please Liuna! Sell It!

[SteelTown]

If you read the article from the National Post that I just posted "Harry Stinson on downtown Hamilton" thread it sounds more like a deal will be made for the Royal Connaught Hotel than Lister Block.

[SteelTown]

This computer won't let me listen to AM900 so if anyone is listening do go ahead and type what Stinson is saying to Bill Kelly. I don't wanna have to wait an hour or two before someone writes an article about it.

[Jon Dalton]

No sale, not for a while yet.

[raisethehammer]

I just posted a quick recap under the Harry Stinson thread.

[realcity]

Sometime David Blanchard is annoying though. BoM notwithstanding, mostly what comes out of his mouth is how dead downtown is. I think he says that so no one else moves in on his territory.

The problem with Stelco Tower is it needs renovating to make it Class A. I not sure it's even Class B space now. All the Class A office space in Hamilton is doing well, which isn't much. The B and C class should be cleaned up or made into residential.

Class A office space
CIBC Twins (full)
Standard Life (near full)
TH&B/GO Station (struggles for tennants)
Bank of Montreal/Gowlings (full)

Class B Buildings
Stelco (half empty)
Ellen Fairclough (should be C)
Federal Building (pathetic)
Robert Thomson (almost full)

[raisethehammer]

hey hey...welcome back realcity.

[fastcarsfreedom]

Why would you include Fairclough and the Federal building? They aren't out there digging for tenants...so what's the point?

Stelco Tower needs an upgrade to be Class A space--it's the only major "problem" building downtown--not sure what the status of 120 Main West is--what is it's tenancy like?

[raisethehammer]

so, now that we know Stinson is looking to build downtown and seems to love what he did at 1 King West - blending old with new - what are the chances that he'll get on board with the Lister project and have them turn phase 2 into a 20-40 storey tower with mostly residential space instead of their original 8-10 storey office building? Mohawk could still locate at ground level or first 2 floors, but tons of condo space above would make sense....if he gets his way, I see him doing a skinny condo tower behind Lister and I see him doing something similar with Connaught. Restoring the old and building a new modern right beside it.

[realcity]

I think the chances of seeing a Stinson version of 1KW at the Lister are better then the current LIUNA proposal ever happening. I prefer Stinson to LIUNA. The building is much better suited for a residential revamp like the Pigott than being a cubical office farm for the City.

[raisethehammer]

no kidding... Lister is perfect for residential.

[SteelTown]

Lister Block: City to get a $37 shock
Project may go belly up if council can't stomach new lease rate

January 07, 2008
Andrew Dreschel
The Hamilton Spectator

City councillors will find out today it's going to cost a lot more than they expected to restore the decrepit Lister Block.

City manager Glen Peace says newly crunched numbers provided by the developers show it will cost the city "substantially higher" to lease space in the downtown landmark than the originally proposed $24 a square foot.

Peace refused to reveal how much higher until he briefs council.

But Councillor Brian McHattie says the city is being asked to pay a whopping $37 a square foot.

That's about double the average rent for good downtown office space.

"That's the proposal from LIUNA and Hi-Rise," said McHattie.

LIUNA is Labourers' International Union of North America, which owns the Lister. They're partnering with the Hi-Rise Group of Toronto to restore and turn the vacant 1920s heritage building at King William and James streets into high-grade office space.

The city was to be the project's anchor tenant. But if the figures stand, it's possible the project could go belly up, once again throwing a cloud of uncertainty over the mouldering eyesore.

Mayor Fred Eisenberger recently warned as much after being told by LIUNA's Joe Mancinelli that renovating the Lister instead of tearing it down and replicating it -- as the developers originally wanted to do -- will drive up construction costs by several million dollars.

Restoration rather than demolition came about after McHattie asked the province to intervene in the name of heritage.

The province facilitated a study group of stakeholders and then committed $7 million to the restoration project.

Under the conditions of the provincial grant, the city needs to enter into a 20-year lease with the developers before March 15 to collect the money, which is intended to offset the city's leasing costs of about $40 million.

But McHattie predicts councillors will be very wary of the proposed higher rates.

"I think a lot of us are a little bit disappointed and, perhaps, skeptical is the right word, with the high cost being put forward by LIUNA and Hi-Rise," he said.

According to city officials, the average cost of leasing office space downtown ranges from $10 to $20 per square foot, with "good space" going for $18 to $20 per square foot.

The previous council knew that the city would be paying a premium to lease office space in the Lister at $24 per square foot, but they decided it was worth it to make the Lister both a symbolic and physical catalyst for downtown redevelopment.

But that rate was based on demolishing the Lister and replacing it with a replica.

In a recent interview with The Spectator, Mancinelli said detailed analysis shows restoration construction will be much more costly than anyone expected.

McHattie is unconvinced. He says the provincial study group concluded restoration should not cost any more than replication, maybe even less.

McHattie says everything now depends on a provincial review by experts of the developers' analysis, which Queen's Park has already agreed to pay for.

"I think we're really hanging our hats on that process."

Councillor Terry Whitehead agrees that higher leasing rates will be a struggle for councillors to accept.

He says the previous council held its nose and agreed to pay $24 a square foot in order to support downtown revitalization.

He doesn't know if the project can survive if higher leasing rates mean more costs to the city that can't be offset by the provincial grant.

"I think it's going to be a real challenge for my colleagues around the table. Whether it's going to pass or not, I wouldn't want to presume," Whitehead said.

"But if we're looking at a direct cost to the city of about $37 a square foot, I'm going to have a real problem with it."

As city manager Peace notes, the question may very well boil down to how much money is council ready to invest in a building it doesn't even own?

[matt602]

What a crock of shit. I hope that provincial review reveals the truth publically that LIUNA is absolutely unnecessarily gouging the City here. Even still it won't matter, because I can predict LIUNA going with a "well, whatever. take it or leave it, we don't care." at which point they'll probably push for demolition again, making it sound as if it's their only choice because the city hall bad guys bailed out on them.