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  #281  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2011, 9:42 PM
J. Will J. Will is offline
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
One of the reasons US systems have such poor ridership levels is due to the poor frequency and service levels.
Many new systems only run every 15 minutes during the day and every 8 to 10 minutes during rush hour. That is more like commuter rail frequency but with the high LRT price.
I'm very surprised how US cities have not embraced automated technology. Vancouver is the best example of automation and allows very extremely high frequency. Living next to a SkyTrain station is like having a taxi at your door.
Rapid transit must be exactly that to pry people from their cars and high frequency is as essential as the speed of the vehicles themselves. Most don't mind taking transit but they hate taking it.
I've said it time and time and time again. Service frequency is everything. Many people on this forum though continue to defend these newish LRT systems, most of which have horrible service frequency. People do not want to wait more than a few minutes for a train. Period. Can you imagine if you could only get your car out of your garage once every 15 minutes instead of whenever you wanted to?

5 minutes or better should be what every systems strives for.
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  #282  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2011, 9:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
The TTC streetcar network not LRT is the largest in NA , there LRT system is small....
Streetcars technically ARE LRT. And three of the streetcar lines have their own ROW, so they are LRT by any definition.
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  #283  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2011, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by J. Will View Post
I've said it time and time and time again. Service frequency is everything. Many people on this forum though continue to defend these newish LRT systems, most of which have horrible service frequency. People do not want to wait more than a few minutes for a train. Period. Can you imagine if you could only get your car out of your garage once every 15 minutes instead of whenever you wanted to?

5 minutes or better should be what every systems strives for.
Calgary ran with 15 minute off-peak service frequencies up until fairly recently - while it was annoying as a customer, it never did really affect the C-Train's success.
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  #284  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2011, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by J. Will View Post
Streetcars technically ARE LRT. And three of the streetcar lines have their own ROW, so they are LRT by any definition.
Well there still in 2 separate catagorys , but a part of the same family....there technically Trams.....
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  #285  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2011, 12:32 AM
Dr Nevergold Dr Nevergold is offline
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Originally Posted by Wizened Variations View Post
Your observations on US LRT are accurate, but, I thought you might want to hear my logic on the quoted portion.

All this is IMO.

A) Toronto is more like NYC than any other city in the world (I might add that it is cleaner, safer, and, friendlier). Like NYC, Toronto is made up of four progressively inclusive components.

1) The City, with a population of some 2.5. (NYC with 8.0)

2) A 'close' (a lot of kms here, but this is relative) metropolitan ring with about 5.5 million people, including the City (NYC with about 19 milion)

3) A 'further' ring, often called the 'Golden Horsehoe' which includes 1 and 2 with a population of 6.5 million. (NYC with about 22 million)

4) An outer 'Golden Horsehoe with some 8.1 million (NYC portion of the megalopolis is harder to define, but, somewhere around 25 million.)

The relative population ratios between city and metro area are surpisingly similar with Toronto city have about 38% of the standard Golden Horseshoe's population, and, NYC about 35% of it's equivalent.

Toronto and NYC, together, when compared to most US large cities, have extremely good steel wheel public transit (Montreal does too, but Montreal is a delightfully different entity, riding on rubber tires ). In addition, near the borders and extending out of the city limits of each city, other than commuter rail (GO and LRR/North Metro/Jersey), both cities have very autocentric metro areas (the 401 can be a world class nightmare, and Long Islands I-495 can be horrid too).

Also, both cities, outside of their affluent urban residential cores,have wide swaths of rich and upper middle class suburbs outside of the city limits (yes NYC has Jersey and Toronto has Hamilton, etc) . Centimillionaires (and a few billionaires) live in the suburbs of both cities (also clustered in Lower Manhattan and in the areas defined by the Bloor Street Line to the north, University to the West, and, Yonge to the East.)

Both cities have significant concentrations of the poor, many of whom receive government assistance.

Both cities have tensions with their suburbs and their provincial and state governments concerning social welfare costs, educational equality, public transporation funding, policing, etc.

Toronto is now a great city- a great city where much of its growth reflects the auto age (thank G*d for the enightened thought behind building the subways in the 1950s- 1960s and not tearing up streetcar lines) While NYC became a great city before the auto age, much of it's growth since WWII reflects the auto age.

The differences between ethnicity, income levels, and, race, while older in NYC, affect each city similiarly in terms of finance, and, sharing power.

Don't get me wrong. I would far rather live in Trana than in the Big Apple, but, Toronto is beginning to reflect some of the social angst that has affected the greatest city in the US for generations. However, like in NYC, the price being paid is less than the rewards the city provides.
I'm not sure I'm following you entirely, but I think I understand where you are coming from with the proportions. Toronto isn't really like any major American city that I've been in. Chicago and NYC are both remarkably different from Toronto, Chicago in particular is an interesting case study because once you get a few blocks from the lakefront Chicago has zero highrises. The only highrise activity you ever see in Chicago is within roughly a 10 block zone from Lake Michigan; however, Chicago and NYC have gobs of neighborhoods with 3-5 story urban developments before the WWII era that Toronto simply doesn't have, but ironically Montreal does as it grew up as Canada's first metropolis.

Toronto has rowhouse styles, but they are typically less intense, the difference about Toronto is that the growth since WWII has included a ton of condo highrises and newer developments that mimic the old urban style.

But that's what makes Toronto special, it is bucking the American trend and going it's own way... Building condos and urban housing in significant amounts in the modern era. Toronto is simply not an American city and you can see it in all kinds of ways. Vancouver is also remarkably different from Seattle and Portland, with the condos going up in Surrey, New Westminster, etc. etc.

Chicago and NYC are just vastly different on so many levels. Each city is grand in it's own right...

In terms of population, Toronto's metropolitan area really has 7 million by American standards, the "metro area" doesn't even include contiguous urban cities like Oshawa and Hamilton. It is like New York not counting much of New Jersey and Connecticut or White Plains in it's rankings. The "Golden Horseshoe" would include even my area in Niagara and the population would swell to well over 8 million, close to a quarter of the entire Canadian population.

As far as the issues Toronto faces, you're right the city is entering an age of having to deal with social issues that it hasn't had to deal with before. But I don't know how it can relate to an American city. The entire system in Canada is just vastly different, people who are poor in Canada are actually given slightly more respect and the system has more safety nets. People who have less incentive for crime will commit less crime, and Toronto has thus far maintained a low crime rate. But you can't tell that if you ask the average Torontonian, they think it has risen to the levels of a typical American city (which is untrue)... I think it is amazing because Toronto is more diverse than NYC is these days, the level of immigration the city has seen is just so vast and varied. Unlike Miami, whose foreign born population comes primarily from Latin America, Toronto has immigrants from virtually every background in the world. NYC and Toronto really have no equals on this, but Toronto is the world's most diverse population by proportion now. This will definately create issues the city will ultimately deal with, but I don't know if I buy this "balkanization" concept you speak of.

BTW, the Golden Horseshoe can't count the American side, but here is an interesting photo of a flight taking off out of Buffalo, showing Toronto in the distance behind the clouds with the lake obviously drawing lines, and then Buffalo down below. It is a rather inter-connected region, even with the American side.


http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6150/...97fff2ff_b.jpg

Last edited by Dr Nevergold; Aug 11, 2011 at 5:52 PM. Reason: added image links
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  #286  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2011, 1:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey View Post
The TTC streetcar network not LRT is the largest in NA , there LRT system is small....
I'm not sure why you wouldn't call the streetcar network light rail, it is every bit as light rail as any other system. Just because the bulk of the system runs at-grade in the middle of the street doesn't mean it isn't LRT. They are completely revamping the entire TTC streetcar system with modern LRV's as we speak, they are on order and are ready to be delivered starting in 2013, and the photos I posted before show the new models.

The map I showed you includes certain lines that are grade separated.. The Waterfront lines, the Spadina line, and the St Clair lines are all grade separated LRT.

Here is what the 512 St Clair line (7km long) currently looks like, the newest line:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._at_Avenue.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ge_Shelter.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...armap-2005.png

The St Clair streetcar route does have to cross intersections, but it is in it's own ROW otherwise, and it is an East-West route, 5km north of the downtown core.

Last edited by Dr Nevergold; Aug 11, 2011 at 5:53 PM. Reason: added image links
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  #287  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2011, 1:42 AM
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Toronto's streetcars are light rail, but they are technically not light rail transit (LRT).

Yeah, "LRT" is a stupid and nonsensical term, but whatever.
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  #288  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2011, 3:27 AM
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Toronto's streetcars are light rail, but they are technically not light rail transit (LRT).

Yeah, "LRT" is a stupid and nonsensical term, but whatever.
This depends on who you ask, LRT is just a term meaning a mode of transit that uses LRV's instead of larger, more heavy styled metro or subway cars, and typically uses overhead catenary wiring as opposed to 3rd rail.

Toronto's streetcar network is more than just a vintage trolley system, and most of it isn't in it's own right of way so it is slower than LRT systems in Calgary that use heavier LRV's and rights of way to achieve better performance.

But Toronto's streetcar network is getting modern LRV's and is being significantly upgraded because of it, so I think the Toronto "streetcar" network is more like a European tram or LRT network once this upgrade is completed. Actually, when Toronto's new "streetcars" get installed in the next few years, I would like to start calling them "trams" just to speak of how much an upgrade it really will be. These new cars are modular and larger, and really are trams as opposed to the image "streetcar" invokes.

Here is a good page with some renderings of what Toronto's streets will look like starting in 2013.

http://www.inekon-trams.com/inekon_t...ronto_ttc.html

That isn't Bombardier, but the style is similar... Modern "trams" will significantly upgrade Toronto's LRT network, and I think Toronto should start calling it's network LRT.
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  #289  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2011, 4:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Brandon716 View Post
This depends on who you ask, LRT is just a term meaning a mode of transit that uses LRV's instead of larger, more heavy styled metro or subway cars, and typically uses overhead catenary wiring as opposed to 3rd rail.
Heavy Rail Metro doesn't have to be powered by third rail. There are plenty of heavy rail metros in the world that run on catenary, not third rail. Power source isn't a distinguishing feature, IMO.
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  #290  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2011, 4:35 AM
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The term "LRT" is usually meant to describe modern or updated streetcar lines which feature grade separation over large portions of the route, limited stops, larger stations, etc. Basically a subway using smaller trains, and usually street running in downtown or in a tunnel downtown.

Streetcars as the ones in Toronto are not really modern LRT. They are the old fashioned "streetcar". "LRT" is meant to be more rapid, etc.

You see this in Pittsburgh where they often go on about updating their streetcar network into a modern "LRT" rapid transit system.
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  #291  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2011, 5:24 AM
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My original point was not that Dallas or Seattle or many other cities were wrong to invest in urban transit. Fact is they should be applauded for putting their money into rapid/mass transit expansion. It's not that they shouldn't have spent the money but rather did they get value for the dollar.
Just because a line gets passable numbers {which most new US systems don't} but rather it's effect on overall transit ridership. If all that is essentially happened is that you have moved transit users from their bus to a train then that's not worth it.
Spending billions just to essentially get riders from one technology to another with no real net gain is a waste of precious infrastructure funds. Many US cities could have very large and expansive Ottawa-like Transitways which would be just as fast, cover a much larger area, and service far more residential and emplyoment centres.
It about bang for the buck and most US systems have not gotten much bang for the megabucks they spent.
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  #292  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2011, 5:37 AM
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But the real test isn't until much later. Particularly when your city is growing. You can grow your city around rail lines, vs. growing it around added roads.
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  #293  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2011, 8:50 AM
Dr Nevergold Dr Nevergold is offline
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
My original point was not that Dallas or Seattle or many other cities were wrong to invest in urban transit. Fact is they should be applauded for putting their money into rapid/mass transit expansion. It's not that they shouldn't have spent the money but rather did they get value for the dollar.
Just because a line gets passable numbers {which most new US systems don't} but rather it's effect on overall transit ridership. If all that is essentially happened is that you have moved transit users from their bus to a train then that's not worth it.
Spending billions just to essentially get riders from one technology to another with no real net gain is a waste of precious infrastructure funds. Many US cities could have very large and expansive Ottawa-like Transitways which would be just as fast, cover a much larger area, and service far more residential and emplyoment centres.
It about bang for the buck and most US systems have not gotten much bang for the megabucks they spent.
The United States has a marketing problem combined with a demand problem. Urban developments largely aren't invested into in the states, the reason why is a perceived lack of interest from the demand side. But the demand side isn't going to pick up on a product that a) isn't marketed to them and b) isn't available to them. It is a catch 22.

That's why you'll get all kinds of investment to build a suburban walmart, a suburban best buy, a suburban roadway system, a suburban everything from single family subdivision to suburban office parks... It is assumed that the development will be preferred, people already are familiar with the system, and it is less "risk".

But the concept of building a big box store along a transit route in an urban form? First, the NIMBY attitude of urbanites will push out any kind of development that doesn't conform to their social acceptance (something I call the urbanites' own self-cannibalization by rejecting an already risk proned sector). I can't understand why urbanites absolutely picket, protest, and complain about urban oriented developments because "that condo is too tall to be near my house" or "that walmart isn't worthy of my neighborhood" when there is obviously a need for development. If Walmart is willing to build an urban formed store, let them. If a condo developer wants to build a 20 storey condo next to your 2 story flat, then stop your bitching....... I can't help but think back to the arguments back in Beaverton, OR that they couldn't possibly build a "tall condo" in their small suburb upon the MAX stations. WTF do these morons think light rail like MAX is supposed to support? Single family homes??? Secondly, businesses and banks don't want to invest into risky projects that may not sell. Lastly, there isn't the marketing to create demand for the product. How many advertisements do you see flaunting the sales of cars? Only every other ad you see or watch... How many are advertising urban lifestyles and condo developments? Well, unless you're in Toronto or Miami probably none or minimal at best.

The point being that urban lifestyles are the small exception to the vast rule of suburban development, and even a new light rail line in a city like Dallas isn't going to foster the kind of urban development it theoretically has the potential for.

Its a system in need of change if we are to get more urban livability outside a few urban centers. You're right: the simple act of building a light rail line in Dallas or Denver isn't going to 'urbanize' unless the entire puzzle comes together. But I give props to the urban design supporters in those locations where all the factors are stacked against them, yet still accomplish so much for what they have.

The simple fact that America has enough (or in the past has had enough) extra cash laying around to fund massive light rail investments in places like Dallas or Houston or Denver, when the return on that investment is unlikely to ever be realized is a testament to how rich America is, and how lucky we are to be able to do so much with systems that effectively are glorified worker 'bus' systems and aren't used for people's lives after they come home from the office in a true urban form.

Hopefully throughout time the investments can sustain urban development, growth, and places to truly live, work, and play simultaneously in more than demonstration projects.


Since I used to live in Beaverton, OR and commuted daily on the MAX, I thought I'd mention I do think Portland has made massive improvements by opting to go MAX over expanded freeway projects, and I also think that the 'demo' projects they've built are impressive, I love this development...


http://www.railpictures.net/images/d...1218057908.jpg

But I clearly remember Beaverton residents complaining over and over and over about how they couldn't allow a condo tower in their cherished suburban community, much like Surrey, BC allows along the Skytrain. While I love Portland and think it is an amazing American city, I still think it suffers from being in America when it comes to urban form. You simply can't run away from the effects of American policy, no matter where you run in this country, and even in a place like Portland.

Compared to Beaverton, Surrey seems like a pretty high density community.

Central Surrey, BC has all kinds of buildings that are unimaginable in suburban Portland:


http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/p...um/9197211.jpg


http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/p...um/3901460.jpg


http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/p...m/52027173.jpg

Last edited by Dr Nevergold; Aug 11, 2011 at 5:54 PM. Reason: added image links
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  #294  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2011, 10:21 PM
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the new Toronto streetcars look awesome. Surrey is growing like a weed, it will become highly dense in coming years. the transit system will be much needed there.
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  #295  
Old Posted Aug 13, 2011, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Brandon716 View Post
LRT is just a term meaning a mode of transit that uses LRV's instead of larger, more heavy styled metro or subway cars, and typically uses overhead catenary wiring as opposed to 3rd rail.
The term LRT is rather useless if it has such a broad definition that it can be used to describe both a streetcar line in traffic and the proposed grade separated eglinton line. I've always had the distinction between streetcars which is used to describe a local service rail line usually in mixed traffic and LRT to describe regional oriented line that only mixes with traffic downtown. While there is not a hard cutoff where you can say a line is one or the other there is no way I would call Calgary's C-Train a street car or Portland's streetcar LRT.
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  #296  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2011, 4:56 AM
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^Generally you're right, but what would you call Toronto's old Transit City plan, where it had it's own right of way in the middle of the street, but had to cross *every* intersection along the line, thus essentially being no more than a streetcar? Is that true LRT, because I didn't consider it LRT yet that is what the old mayor and TTC chair sold the plan as.
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  #297  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2011, 5:33 AM
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As I said there is no clear line between the two and I wouldn't have a problem with someone referred to it as either. I would be more inclined to call it a streetcar due to the fact that it would have had stops every 500m if I am correct. It would either have to stop every 500m and be very slow or use stop request which is not what I think of when I hear LRT. That being said I don't think that it being a "Streetcar" makes it bad.

Last edited by bardak; Aug 14, 2011 at 6:08 AM.
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  #298  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2011, 11:13 PM
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Street cars are great for local trips / feeder routes, no doubt about that, but grade separated mass transit is best for the backbone of systems (such as subways and skytrain). An LRT can also act as a backbone if the vast majority of the system has its own rail bed / row akin to a heavy rail train.

And to brandon 716, the suburbs of Burnaby, New West and now Richmond have done a far better job building around skytrain than Surrey has. in fact the odd American tourist has been found confused in Metrotown, Burnaby, believing it was downtown Vancouver

Here are some of my own pics displaying the high density being built around Skytrain train stations in Metro-Vancouver:

This is the metrotown skyline in Burnaby, built along the Expo skytrain line, currently surrounding 2 train stations (it should be noted that currently there are 3 towers starting construction in this area over 400 feet, one over 500 feet, so this skyline is going to add a lot of height over the next couple years)














And this is the up and coming Brentwood area also in Burnaby, being built around several skytrain Millennium Line stations









These pictures are 1 to 2 years old and since then more towers have started construction in the area (and many more are planned)

Unfortunately I dont have any good pics of the New West skyline, but recently mant new large towers have gone up around the skytrain stations there and a new mall is being built around the guideway and station house. That will be an interesting development when finished next year I believe.

Anyways, here is one pic I have of sky train through New Westminster.




And here is the new Canada Line going through the suburb of Richmond. Many new condos being built along this line now.





All pics are my own:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/30634635@N03/page31/
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  #299  
Old Posted Aug 14, 2011, 11:53 PM
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wow! now that is a transit oriented population node, if ever there was one.
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  #300  
Old Posted Aug 15, 2011, 1:30 AM
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Vancouver does an enviable job with TOD. I wish their towers were a lot closer together though, both in Metrotown et al and on the Downtown Peninsula. Seattle, as discussed, is way behind around our light rail.

Semi-related good news in Seattle...budget problems were about to cut Metro bus service by 17%....the Council Council has reached an agreement to add a car tab fee to keep funding at the current level. With five votes it would have gone to the voters, but with six they could make the choice directly, and they got seven. This is hugely important because Metro Transit buses are (guessing) something like 2/3 of the region's transit usage, vs. 5% for Link Light Rail.
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