SSP:Local Hamilton in critical condition

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by the dude

seriously, it took bcted months to admit that there might be an occasional truck on york/cannon. in fact, they're continuous along that particular route. before my departure, i walked those streets daily and can attest to the truck traffic but, naturally, he would have none of it.

Absolutely untrue. I never denied that trucks exist, nor did I ever waiver or change my tune after "months." I simply stated that I have not seen the kind of insane truck traffic that many people claim to see, and I still have not. It may well exist, but I have not seen it. So sue me.

i also recall him trying to suggest that lrt takes more lives than the automobile. please now.

I do not recall exactly what I posted, but it was not something that I suggested, but rather it was part of something that I found on the Web [it was sourced] and presented forward for discussion. It may have had to do with numbers that suggested that the accident rate for light rail was higher per passenger mile than was that of other forms of transit, but I may well be wrong.

I challenge you to find anything that I have ever said that was flat-out incorrect without acknowledging my error.

i hate rehashing these sorts of things but as another poster has stated, he loves stirring the shit. 'what, me?' he says. 'i didn't do anything.'

Absolutely untrue once again. I have confessed numerous times (far too many, really --- I have never really done anything wrong or disrespected anyone) to being overly aggressive and I have attempted to make peace each time. I have also readily admitted to stirring things up, but I make no apologies for that --- as I have stated many, many times, if everyone on here were in complete agreement about everything, the whole forum would amoount to a giant monologue.

I believe that the treatment I have received is much, much worse than the treatment I have given (I do not laugh people off or outright dismiss them), but I have gone over my behaviour a zillion times. Let's insulate me from the argument for once --- I believe I have demonstrated that I am willing to budge.

I believe that the way raisethehammer's tone and the way he presents arguments and the way that he treats people on here on a daily basis is much, much worse than the way I have ever treated anyone. The fact that he refuses to ever acknowledge anything and refuses to take this "troll bait" of mine suggests to me that nothing will ever change with him and that I am, to use one of his favourite phrases, "wasting my time." The only time I have ever seen him budge (I think) was when I called him out for comparing the collapse of that Lister building to WTC 7.

And with that, perhaps I should stop wasting my own time and posting in this thread. It seems that I have gotten nowhere once again, but at least I have received affirmation from a few people that I am not delusional.

[SteelTown]

Can't we just ignore post and quit the bickering?

[raisethehammer]

sorry Flar...this thread was a great idea, but it's not heading where you wanted.
Time to kil it.
I'll toss my final two cents in.
Different opinions are allowed on any topic in any thread.
One basic rule is to learn to differentiate between one's opinion vs. an actually supported, fact-based point. Many on here regularly quote some 'light' research in the form of articles, real estate info, urban development news from abroad etc....

others simply come on and say "I like this" or "I don't lik that".
It's just an opinion.
I've been guilty more than once of trying to persuase someone to change their opinion, but clearly that's not going to happen.
I like posters like Steeltown and Flar who provide a good mix of research/valuable info and personal opinion.
In fact, I'm not sure why anyone would even come on here and never bring something valuable to the discussion other than one sentence phrases, but people do so let's just leave it at that.

As far as comments directed towards me, I feel no need to go back through my comments and remind the board of the various scoops, researched info and well-thought out ideas I bring to the board.
I have responded in haste too many times to trolly-style posts and I'll be sure to cut back on that and do my part to keep this discussion upbeat, positive and about the Hammer.

[realcity]

this thread is gay

[block43]

this thread is straight!

[raisethehammer]

this thread is dead!

[flar]

Actually this is good, I hoped this thread could be a place to air things out. The forum had been much better the last few days. I hope everyone keeps posting more considered (and considerate) posts.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I'm with Flar, I don't see what gone so suddenly awry with this thread--in fact, this is healthy discussion--it is far from time to "kill it"--I fail to see what the objective of that would be.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

.
In fact, I'm not sure why anyone would even come on here and never bring something valuable to the discussion other than one sentence phrases, but people do so let's just leave it at that.

There's this thing called the intarwebs. People should be working, but they procrastinate. Then someone says something that's, like, wrong, so you gotta make sure they know.

[markbarbera]

The first two posts by Flar and Steeltown are bang-on on how this SSP should be handled, and I had hoped others would heed the word and start contributing positively to the discussion, regardless of what side of the discussion you find yourself on. Unfortunately t didn't take long for this discussion to take a downward turn. If nothing else, the last page or so contains some fine examples of the kinds of posts that are that are diminishing the quality of the SSP.

I have found myself sucked into the downward spiral of otherwise healthy discussion threads on several occasions. Of late, I have been making a conscious effort to ignore all the red herrings and straw men being strewn about in many of the threads in this SSP. Now, when a posting is made strictly to get in a jab at someone (i.e. namecalling or belittling another poster's opinion), I simply ignore the bait and let it slide. It really isn't worth the effort. If it is blatent harassment, I'll report it to a moderator so they can deal with it.

People making those kinds of comments are looking for a reaction. If they don't get the reaction they are anticipating, they'll wander off to harass people somewhere else on the net. And our discussions can return to that which is relevant to the thread, and the quality of the SSP will return.

[chris k]

Perhaps we can vote on a "Hamilton section" moderator to keep the peace in this section. More strict punishments such as bannings and not being allowed to post in certain sections are some of the things i have seen in other forums.

If we cannot decide on a Hamilton member to control it becuase of "biases" or taking sides, we could look outside at another member.

Sorry if this is coming across to strong but i beleive that punishments will stop this kind of behaviour.

Cheers

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

I'm with Flar, I don't see what gone so suddenly awry with this thread--in fact, this is healthy discussion--it is far from time to "kill it"--I fail to see what the objective of that would be.

of course you feel that way because you and BCTed have been dominating the discussion and perpetuating the arguing.
If Realcity, Retrofit or I were the ones prolonging this "discussion" you'd be on here telling the world how ashamed you are to even exist on the same planet as us.
It's time for ALL of us to end this us vs. them mentality and just co-exist on the board with the purpose of discussing the Hammer and related news.
People who hate Hamilton can go start their own page with skulls and crossbones everywhere, speaking about the doom of the Hammer.
SSP is here to discuss development and economic/cultural issues around the world.
Let's all work together so our page doesn't become an embarassment and poor reflection of our city.

[fastcarsfreedom]

I am actually speechless...seriously, utterly, speechless. I have called for civility countless times--I applauded the creation of this thread--I have said time and again that I think this discourse is healthy--and yet, I am accused of "perpetuating the arguing?"

I don't ever expect to change your mind on the issues we discuss--just as I assume you don't intend or expect to change mine--nonetheless, disagreeing with you--or any of the other posters you included in your bloc, doesn't make me or anyone else a troll, or someone who's here to harass anyone--as opposed to bickering I actually put genuine thought and effort into what I bring to this Forum and applaud anyone else who does--whatever their opinions may be.

How can you justify dividing people into blocs--as you did in your post--and alternately suggest that we end "Us Vs. Them" bickering? That is a serious question--not one I'm posing to illicit a reaction.

And no my friend, I would not be saying I was embarassed to share the planet with you--or anyone else--and I don't appreciate the insinuation to the contrary which contradicts the whole point of this discussion--which is bringing acrimony to an end.

As for "Hamilton Haters" I've yet to meet one here--on any side of any debate. Moreover, I am certain given my past contributions to this site that that particular comment was not directed at me personally--because nothing could be further from the truth.

If you really want civility--then we want the same thing.

[Mike K.]

Perhaps we can vote on a "Hamilton section" moderator to keep the peace in this section.

I think this is a good idea.

Please discuss.

I'll be monitoring this section for a while in response to the desire to have some oversight, but what's really needed is a local mod familiar with this section and its members.

Please remember that the admins do take issues of derailing threads or bait-and-hook situations seriously and can either suspend or ban individuals who continuously engage in conduct not conducive to a respectful discussion environment. If anyone experiences derailing discussions please report the post via the post reporting tool and either ad admin or a global moderator will step in.

[raisethehammer]

I think it's a great idea.

[SteelTown]

A local mod would be a good step forward. A local mod is always better in my opinion.

[markbarbera]

I agree. And I think Steeltown would make an excellent moderator.

Mike K, glad to hear discussion derailments and bait-and-hook situations are taken so seriously by the moderators of SSP. IMO that's exactly what is making Hamilton SSP suffer of late, and would love to see them curtailed. I will do my bit and report any postings I notice doing this. Thanks for all your work for this SSP by the way!

[Mike K.]

And thank you guys for bringing this issue to light. I'm actually very impressed that you've all participated in a venting session. I've never seen something like this before, so good on all of you!

With respect to a mod, I'm all ears if there are any suggestions for candidates.

[HAMRetrofit]

I nominate Flar since he had the insight to start this thread and his pictures rock.

[coalminecanary]

YOU ALL SMELL BAD AND OTHER PERSONAL ATTACKS

just kidding

Anyway, I think a mod is a good idea, but not if it turns out to be heavy handed. I mean, curtailing spam posts and clear derogatory personal attacks is important. But in general, if people are willing to post their words on a public board, they need to understand that what they say will be there to be seen forever.

For instance, people will occasionally post something that seems to be so out of the park ridiculous that I can't believe they seriously meant it. But there's a plus side to these kind of "way out there" posts, no matter what political/social angle they come from -- that is, it forces us all to come up with well thought out sane arguments backed up with facts in order to expose the lunacy of such posts. And then it's up to the original poster to do the same in order to convince us that it's not actually lunacy!

People who consistently post way-out things without facts backing them up tend to get ignored more and more until it's not worth it for them to rile things up.

I think a much more sane approach (instead of heavy handed modding) is for everyone to not take someone else's opinions too seriously -- that's how these flame wars get started.

I admit that I will often quote people and use their statements as a spring board to present my side of the argument. But I try pretty hard to avoid direct personal attacks. However, if you post your opinion on a message board, you are opening yourself up for your opinion to be shot right down by someone else's opinion. To me, that's all part of the point of these places otherwise it would be pretty boring.

The problem comes when posts turn from "this is why I think your point is completely wrong" to "you are an idiot if that's what you think".

So I guess my take is that a mod might be useful for stepping in when things get really personal, but there is a danger in censoring people's opinions, or censoring their responses to others opinions without hitting personal attack territory.

Let's just not make it too heavy handed :-)