Vancouver (and BC's) bizarre negative representatives on SSP

[memememe76]

Unlike the other major Canadian cities, Vancouver doesn't have the same amount of baggage when it comes to overcoming Canadian stereotypes. I mean, there are stereotypes about Vancouver, but they are not negative enough for posters to come defend their city. Also, the stereotypes are very, very specific to Vancouver and have very little to do with its relationship with the rest of the province and country.

I mean, how many times can one defend things like rain and yoga pants?

Real estate is always a contentious issue and those who are most negative about it will post more. Are there posters who think real estate in Vancouver is cheap?

If Vancouver is derided for anything, it's that the city is "overrated." Vancouver is on top of surveys, it get big events, real estate is high, it has a relatively large national profile. But how do you defend something like that? Oh, you don't like the city as much as other people? Oh well.

People complain how Vancouverites so desperately want to be a world-class city but if that were the case, you'd think there'd be more boosters in the International forums. Look at how many Toronto-centric threads exist over there.

One of the things I admire about Vancouver is how engaged the population really is. Some consider it provincial, but I like that a lot of people will have opinions on what is going on with the city. I think it's due to geography. The Pacific Northwest (Portland and Seattle included) just won't ever be the world's epicentre. So, we focus inward.

[twoNeurons]

Vancouver is probably one of least egalitarian when it comes to the wealthy and the non. There aren't a lot of high paying jobs, yet lots of high-cost living. We seem to like this distinction and at the same time despise it.

In Calgary or Toronto or Montreal the divides aren't as pronounced, aren't as celebrated.

There is irony, given BC's strong union history, that there is a lack of good-paying everyjoe jobs in the biggest city. Yes, there are plenty of jobs in forestry or mining, but that's not Vancouver.

ANYWAY, the result of this, in my opinion, combined with a touch of hippie history is that elitism is despised to the point of general negativity. I also feel that the weather here does contribute a small amount to the negativity you see in the city in general.

In the west, as well, integration is less emphasized (compared, especially, with places like Quebec). This is positive and negative, making people feel welcome to keep cultural practices and also fostering a beneath-the-skin-level prejudice.

Prejudice DOES exist in plentifulness in Vancouver, it's just it's suppressed. Note, I think this is actually a good thing... but some people can't handle the "political correctness" of it all.

In summary, this post has been all over the place... but hopefully there are some nuggets in there that some of you haven't thought about before.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Vancouver is probably one of least egalitarian when it comes to the wealthy and the non. There aren't a lot of high paying jobs, yet lots of high-cost living. We seem to like this distinction and at the same time despise it.

In Calgary or Toronto or Montreal the divides aren't as pronounced, aren't as celebrated.

There is irony, given BC's strong union history, that there is a lack of good-paying everyjoe jobs in the biggest city. Yes, there are plenty of jobs in forestry or mining, but that's not Vancouver.

I think there are more decent paying jobs than people realize. Construction is a big industry in Vancouver and the pay is better most jobs. Even a first year apprentice can make 18 an hour. It goes up to 42 or so an hour for foreman. And there are a lot of construction workers out there. And there is tech and film industry and so on. Imo the low paying job thing gets overstated here in Vancouver.

[a very long weekend]

i've lived in vancouver about as long as i've lived anywhere, as long as i've lived in montreal and san francisco.

the thing for me is that the vancouver i knew and liked is exactly the vancouver that has been most eroded/straight up targeted over the past number of years. it's a simple story, really. when it's too costly for a cool place to open and/or make rent, cool places don't open. and when there's nothing interesting to do or see or sit around or meet others and nothing on the horizon, interesting people leave or give up. it wouldn't be so bad, some cities have always been like that (calgary, for instance), but that vancouver used to be quirky and cool like montreal or sf, which makes it all the more painful to watch. even in the adbusters era like around y2k, i don't think people could have anticipated just how far down this road vancouver would go, and still with no end in sight.

so yeah, i think that a real vancouverite can justifiably shit on this.

[theKB]

Originally Posted by logan5

I think there are more decent paying jobs than people realize. Construction is a big industry in Vancouver and the pay is better most jobs. Even a first year apprentice can make 18 an hour. It goes up to 42 or so an hour for foreman. And there are a lot of construction workers out there. And there is tech and film industry and so on. Imo the low paying job thing gets overstated here in Vancouver.

Yes, but it most normal cities that would provide for a decent living (we aren't talking about a NYC or Tokyo here) but in Vancouver you barely scrape by. How is that good?

42 bucks an hour gives you about 85 grand in annual salary and as construction goes it can be very up and down as to keeping steady work.

If you have two kids and a partner who maybe pulls the same you aren't exactly living it up. You pay your 3500/mo mortgage for your home in Vancouver, property taxes, car payments, daycare etc. There isn't very much at the end of the day. And thats amortizing your home over 35 years. Overall that isn't a great standard of living. The further you live out, you may get a bit cheaper but you are then commuting and there is a totally different discussion that comes into play.

Isn't it an issue with major companies enticing staff to come and work in Vancouver as it is?

Someone who say lives in Chicago and pulls 120k and has full benefits etc. Asked to relocate to Vancouver for job. Wife doesn't work, they have two kids. Where would they have a better standard of living? Even relocating from Toronto or Montreal to Vancouver I think would be a tough pill to swallow.

[SpongeG]

a lot of people have a negative view of vancouver, find vancouver too crowded, too expensive, too rainy, too hard to get around and had lived there but found it too expensive and hard to meet people and leave the city with a negative over rated impression, most of these people are from smaller towns and never lived in a city before so they really have no idea what city living is like which is different, heck even the differences between edmonton and vancouver are drastic

and than you have people from much bigger cities like hong kong, seoul, toronto, london, sydney etc. who have moved to vancouver and find it too small, no good paying jobs, way overpriced for such a small city, they immigrated here with the idea/impression that they could make a good living only to find that their skills degress etc are not valid or need upgrading etc. and just have a negative outlook of their experience

my best friend moved to vancouver from seoul about 5 or so years ago and he found vancouver too expensive, too small, lacking in shopping etc. but he moved up north to work with me in alberta and recently decided to move to calgary to make the commute easier and in recently selling his house in vancouver area he realizes what a great city it really is after spending some time in calgary and edmonton. When we have driven around edmonton he always remarks as do I why are there no people downtown? it's so dead, there is no life here kinda doesn't want to leave vancouver now.

I guess it's in a weird place, the only big city on the west coast, a lot of people moving from within canada are from smaller towns and it's their first big city experience, those moving to vancouver internationally are mostly coming from much larger cities and don't understand how the city can be so expensive with no good paying jobs etc.

I think it takes leaving the city to really appreciate how great it really is, but this applies to a lot of things, when you are in it you don't really realize what you have, be it a job or a relationship etc. so basically vancouver has a lot of people "in it" who just don't have that perspective to see it and appreciate it and that can be a negative place to be

[trofirhen]

Vancouver is an atypical North American mid-sized metropolitan area. Whereas most cities our size, or even smaller, have extensive freeway systems leading to or around the central city, we don't. We have a major freeway to the east of the city, but generally rely on the arterial road system, and a well-developing rrt system.

Demographically, we're transforming from a previously Euro-dominant city into a real melting pot of races worldwide, with notable groups in particular, contrasting with demographic profiles often seen in American cities.

There's a great deal of money invested in Vancouver, and property values and taxes are generally high.
In a large, economically diverse city this might be all right, but in a city with a fairly limited - through diversifying - core economy, ad generally mid-range salaries unlike Washinton DC, Dallas, Toronto or even Seattle, the "middle" middle class here is often put in a tight financial situation when wanting to buy a home.

Perhaps a problem with Vancouver is that it seems sometimes over-rated.
"The most livable" or "among the top 5 most livable" epithets are great,
but not when you're struggling to pay the rent on an underpaid university-level salary.

The city has always, perhaps due to its rather sequestered geographic location, been slightly "out of step" with much of the country.
If not, one might even say that the city "marches to a different drummer."

The city has little history and has grown, from a railway terminus built in 1886 to a city of nearly a million and an half in that time. Like an adolescent, the city has tripped up and faletered, but now seems to have established, or to be in the processing of establishing, and carving out,
an identity and style of development all its own, replicated in numerous cities around the world.
(Yes I'm talking about 'Vancouverism')

I think that perhaps one reason Vancouver posters APPEAR not to like, or to be excesively citical of their own city, is that it has so much potential,
and there competing visions of what will make the city ever more appealing, ever more beautiful, and ever more liveable.

It's not a self-love / self-hate thing. It's a city setting high standards for itself, and trying to live up to them.

[Metro-One]

Overall some great replies.

Again, I am not saying that no one should criticize Vancouver or that it does not have its negatives, but just that the viewpoints are hilariously negative on this forum outside of the Van section (often supported by false claims / made up data). That is what urks me.

Yeah I always enjoy seeing you on there Density. It is funny how even on the weather thread BC is usually ignored and if Canada is cold / warm or not only depends on what is happening in Ontario / Quebec.

For goodness sakes, Ashcroft recorded 4 consecutive days above 40 degrees this summer (along with many other locations reaching 40, Lytton even did it again this August), and that barely managed to build a murmur. I would love to see how crazy that thread would go if anywhere east of manitoba were to hit a true 40 degree temp.

It would be great if there were more active members from Kamloops and or Kelowna. Victoria as well.

Also on the national / international threads, when most people say "Vancouver" they are referring to the entire Lower mainland region, so the small civic boundary disputes / rivalries are not a factor in those conversations.

[Denscity]

^^^ I wish there were more Kelowna or Kamloops posters as well. I mean I cant name ANY forumers from Kelowna!

[whatnext]

To be honest I hadn't noticed the negativity on the Canada forum from Vancouverites, and I usually check it most days.

The fact that relatively few Vancouver forumers post there probably says something about Vancouverites interest in the outside world! Partly in jest, but partly in truth.

There's also the fact that image of Vancouver really pertains to a small fraction of the City proper. There's little posted about the area outside of the downtown peninsula/Kits/False Creek in the Vancouver forum, let alone the Canada one.

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by Denscity

^^^ I wish there were more Kelowna or Kamloops posters as well. I mean I cant name ANY forumers from Kelowna!

I'm originally from Kelowna but I fled over 1.5 years ago to Vancouver.

[ozonemania]

Originally Posted by whatnext

The fact that relatively few Vancouver forumers post there probably says something about Vancouverites interest in the outside world! Partly in jest, but partly in truth.

Perhaps partly in truth.. but from my perspective I don't post in the Canada section because they are rarely even acknowledged. That might easily be a testament to the excitement factor of my posts, but nevertheless... I think you would see more Vancouverites posting elsewhere if the Vancouver perspective was accepted as a legitimate one. It doesn't feel that way quite often, as if Vancouver is an anomaly or something.

That being said, it is an intra-national bias... I think most Canadians talking about Vancouver from an international point of view are more likely to speak more affectionately about the city.

For those of you that have been visiting this forum for a long long time, you may draw parallels between the type of rah-rah Vancouver posting that was prevalent years ago, much in the manner that Calgary is doing today. I think back then people just got sick of it and put us in our place, and we stopped with the self-fascination, at least publicly and so blatantly.

[Cypherus]

Originally Posted by ozonemania

For those of you that have been visiting this forum for a long long time, you may draw parallels between the type of rah-rah Vancouver posting that was prevalent years ago, much in the manner that Calgary is doing today. I think back then people just got sick of it and put us in our place, and we stopped with the self-fascination, at least publicly and so blatantly.

I remember when I was a SSP lurker years ago there was a Vancouver Photo Thread in the International section every week. The praise and hype the city was receiving from all over the world slowly lost its appeal as more threads with the same photos from different angles were posted. I think Vancouver became over-exposed and interest waned. Even some prominent Vancouver members of the past no longer post here regularly (i.e. Delirium, excel) - an indicator of even further disinterest.

Inversely, we see similar patterns of overexposure in the Canada section, with Toronto, Montreal, and Calgary becoming the focus. This is driving my disinterest in visiting the Canada section because I don't care to see another picture of the CN tower. In hindsight, it is then understandable why some of those members probably have no interest in seeing another picture of downtown Vancouver either.

[libtard]

As a staunch supporter of highways, I feel I'm completely justified in my criticism of BC's transportation network. We clearly have the worst highways in North America. Even when we build something new, we can't seem to get it right.

I find it funny how BC has no problem building elevated viaducts for the skytrain, yet we won't even consider building elevated fly over ramps for our highways and interchanges. Washington State just puts us to shame


Credit WSDOT

[Bcasey25raptor]

Originally Posted by libtard

As a staunch supporter of highways, I feel I'm completely justified in my criticism of BC's transportation network. We clearly have the worst highways in North America. Even when we build something new, we can't seem to get it right.

I find it funny how BC has no problem building elevated viaducts for the skytrain, yet we won't even consider building elevated fly over ramps for our highways and interchanges. Washington State just puts us to shame


Credit WSDOT

Thats ugly. No thanks.

[vansky]

if you want to experience expressways, highways and interchanges, visit asia...there r tons of those mocking the states.

and seattle and portland rn't really the real show offs, go to houston, dallas or bigger cities, u dont even have to visit l.a.

i think no matter how u build things, given the crowdness of this place, u can't really feel that much glamour with highways. if u put an interachange in van, it doen'st feel as big as if u put it in a smaller town.

it's the rate of scale, take the alex fraser for example, if u throw this thing in portland, it be a lot more impressive than if u'd c this in vancouver. cuz in vvan, u already get a city mindset, and anything that is impressive is normal. u get that from coming out of the airport. so that's why i dont really think an interchange or a 300m skyscraper adds too much anyways.

but yes, us highways by infrastructure and pulse make vancouver's looking cheap. but city wise, it's alright.

btw, narrow lanes and crowded space can be a sign of a big city, and frankly, van is not that big by population. so that density fools one to think they r living in a big city, u know vancouver never lives up to the real expectations of cities like new york, and doesn't that depresses your ego. hahaha.

the reason why we rn't fulfilled by so many things is because this city isn't really there yet, or will enver really be there forever, so u might well just live else where if u really want pulse. or else, just enjoy everything. at the end it's no london, tokyo, shanghai or new york, it's just a smaller toronto. dont go further than reality, just get grounded because no fantasy is going to change it.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Cypherus

I remember when I was a SSP lurker years ago there was a Vancouver Photo Thread in the International section every week. The praise and hype the city was receiving from all over the world slowly lost its appeal as more threads with the same photos from different angles were posted. I think Vancouver became over-exposed and interest waned. Even some prominent Vancouver members of the past no longer post here regularly (i.e. Delirium, excel) - an indicator of even further disinterest.

Inversely, we see similar patterns of overexposure in the Canada section, with Toronto, Montreal, and Calgary becoming the focus. This is driving my disinterest in visiting the Canada section because I don't care to see another picture of the CN tower. In hindsight, it is then understandable why some of those members probably have no interest in seeing another picture of downtown Vancouver either.

That really speaks to my point, the same few blocks photographed again and again as "Vancouver". Start a photo thread with Killarney, Marpole, Whalley, Dundarave, Morgan Creek etc.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by logan5

I think there are more decent paying jobs than people realize. Construction is a big industry in Vancouver and the pay is better most jobs. Even a first year apprentice can make 18 an hour. It goes up to 42 or so an hour for foreman. And there are a lot of construction workers out there. And there is tech and film industry and so on. Imo the low paying job thing gets overstated here in Vancouver.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...il107a-eng.htm

There is still a large divide here and as for construction, that's across the country and although we've had an extended boom over the last decade or so, that's something that's shared across the country, due to cheap lending, cheap money and the propensity for people to spend beyond their means and go into debt.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Bcasey25raptor

Thats ugly. No thanks.

This is exactly the kind of problem we have with many Vancouverites: straight rejection of anything that seems unfamiliar without giving more thoughts on how something can benefit us.

Although not a frequent driver, I sometimes wish that traffic choke-points around the Lower Mainland can be improved. If not, then we should make sure that the transit system is world class, or even allow developers to put even taller towers at already densified neighbourhoods. Please don't just reject it all.

[alchemist redux]

I don't typically post to these forums, but I have been following them for quite some time.

To be fair to the "haters", Vancouver's atypicalness sometimes breeds a sense of exceptionalism in our planning/policy culture that - when it extends too far - defies logic and common sense.

Some good examples are how we treat junkies in the DTES. To the casual observer, it would seem as if these people are no better off in the DTES than if they were on the streets of Kolkata and that nobody cares. On the contrary, the average homeless person in the DTES is lavished by a whole ensemble of welfare and social assistance programs, whether it's needle exchanges or the Portland Hotel Society, or practically the whole social planning department of the City. It's just that these care groups actually believe that junkies have a right to exist in the neighbourhood in that wretched state, and that we have no right to force them to conform to our norms (i.e. getting them off the streets and into dedicated treatment). A European country would not have a DTES, not because they have more generous social welfare programs, but because their policymakers would force DTES residents into off-site treatment and care, and tell them to conform to expected social norms.

Another example are our vendetta against freeways. True, I am quite happy that this city isn't sliced up by urban expressways like every other North American city of our size. On the other hand, this forces goods movement to clog busy city streets like Clark/Knight and forces a lot of through traffic (like people going through Vancouver to Horseshoe Bay/Whistler) to wind their way through downtown. Look at a European city: they don't have freeways into their cores, but they usually have a very dense network of suburban autobahns and motorways that direct through traffic and goods movement around the perimeter of the city.

I can sort of see why Vancouver's exceptionalism can drive certain forumers who genuinely care about the outcome of the city up a wall. Just my $0.02