Ottawa Rapid Transit Network developments

[lrt's friend]

Somehow, I don't see this happening over just 6 months. Not only does the track and power system have to be installed and likely the roadbed replaced to some degree, but all the stations will have to be redesigned, and that will be a major redesign at Blair and Hurdman with new bus transfer facilities. Furthermore, the consultants recognize the problems with the Rideau River bridge, and there is no possibility without causing total traffic chaos of rerouting hundreds of buses onto the Queensway in order to enter downtown. I cannot emphasize enough the benefit of building new rapid transit in order to attract new ridership and this so called bus bypass will do exactly that. We should be doing something similar for the west end.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The only way to build LRT on the eastern Transitway is to provide a bus bypass as suggested, and that must be built first. The other option is to build LRT along the Alta Vista Parkway - Innes Corridor, but I think their rationale is that ridership will not nearly be as high on that corridor to make LRT cost effective. I am very pleased that we will end up with 2 rapid transit routes going eastward and that there will continue to be bus access over the Rideau river and into downtown. This will provide a great deal of additional flexibility to our transit network that was not apparent in the original presentation of the Option 4 plan.

We don't need a new road into the core. The core is at capacity. We need public transit into the core. Simply running buses on the Queensway to Nicholas (with it's own temporary lane if needed) should work just fine until the LRT line is built.

[lrt's friend]

We don't need a new road into the core. The core is at capacity. We need public transit into the core. Simply running buses on the Queensway to Nicholas (with it's own temporary lane if needed) should work just fine until the LRT line is built.

We need a viable way to get hundreds of buses into downtown while LRT is being built. Running them on the Queensway will just add to an already congested traffic situation. We cannot afford to slow down transit to that degree, even if construction only takes 6 months. That will just drive transit ridership away, especially those not destined for downtown.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We need a viable way to get hundreds of buses into downtown while LRT is being built. Running them on the Queensway will just add to an already congested traffic situation. We cannot afford to slow down transit to that degree, even if construction only takes 6 months. That will just drive transit ridership away, especially those not destined for downtown.

I don't think building an unnecessary bridge makes much sense either. Taxes will skyrocket. There will be a transition when LRT opens no matter what, and ridership will recover as time passes. If the 6 months are in the summer months, ridership is lower anyhow and volume will be easier to handle.

[Deez]

Did anyone catch the fact that before any rail line is operational, the Strandherd-Armstrong Bridge will be constructed, the Alta Vista corridor will be constructed (in part) and the 174 will be widened to 6 lanes?

Lame.

[lrt's friend]

A lot of roads can be built in 10 years. I don't believe the Strandherd-Armstrong Bridge will be built until I can actually drive across it. Obviously, I won't be using transit. Why do we have to wait 10 years for a rail system? That was my question to the mayor last week. He still seems to be under the impression that it will be sooner while everybody else says differently.

Wasn't it just a few short months ago that the mayor was saying that the shovel will be in the ground before the next municipal election? Dream on!

[nerox3]

Option 4, the E-W route was the prefered option at my table at last week's consultation. There was also a clear majority that wanted it put on record that we liked the Byron option.

I talked to one of the staffers afterwards who stated that the Byron option would cost about as much as putting it along Carling. That to me means they haven't seriously looked at the Byron option. Byron is shorter than Carling has fewer intersections and is much more space. How could it be anywhere near as expensive.

I think the Nimbyism against the Byron option is overrated. There was even a guy who lived on Byron there who thought Byron was the better choice.

[Richard Eade]

At the Durrel Rec. Centre last night, there seemed to be a fair number of locals who are VERY opposed to running buses along the Browning Corridor. I think that we have heard about the uproar for the Ottawa Parkway, but we have yet to hear about the Browning Ave. opposition (including Councillor Hume).

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

At the Durrel Rec. Centre last night, there seemed to be a fair number of locals who are VERY opposed to running buses along the Browning Corridor. I think that we have heard about the uproar for the Ottawa Parkway, but we have yet to hear about the Browning Ave. opposition (including Councillor Hume).

To me the easy and cheaper solution is to simply run the buses on Industrial with perhaps some transit priority measures...

[Richard Eade]

I found it inteserting that Scenario 3 needs a bus by-pass to be built so that the Eastern Transitway could be converted to rail, but such a by-pass is not required for Scenario 4, which also converts the Eastern Transitway. When I asked about this, the (MRC) consultant said that there were other routes which could be used for Scenario 4. He wasn't sure why such routes could not be used for Scenario 3. Maybe it has something to do with the section between St. Laurent and Blair since that section is not to be converted in Scenario 4, phase 1. (The consultant did seem to have reservations about the ability of the St. Laurent Station to act as a major LRT/BRT transfer station. This might indicate that Scenario 4 is not a real option, but was added to pad out the choices to four. They seem to like four things in the choice list.)

Another interesting tid-bit is that the City has approached the MTO, asking if they would be interested in accelerating the 417 widening in the Nicholas to Blair section so that the City could use the new lanes for exclusive BRT while the conversion occurs. Apparently, the MTO said that it was something that was possible. Of course, this is information from a consultant who does not work directly for the City so it might have some flexability in facts. Take this with as much salt as you feel it is worth.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

To me the easy and cheaper solution is to simply run the buses on Industrial with perhaps some transit priority measures...

That also seemed to be the suggestion of the Browning area residents.

Would Industrial have the available capacity to add all of the Transitway buses? It is only a four lane road with many driveways. There are also signal controlled intersections which can slow down the buses. Then buses would still need to cross the river somehow.

The City seems to be trying to do the by-pass on the cheap. It is doing it as BRT and running the buses along Innes. If it were to build the bypass as LRT, there would be a lot more trouble getting the rail past St. Laurent Blvd. to Blair. The quickest/easiest/fastest by-pass route (assuming Industrial isn't used) is the bus route shown.

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by nerox3

...I think the Nimbyism against the Byron option is overrated. There was even a guy who lived on Byron there who thought Byron was the better choice.

A good observation.

I must admit that I have heard a LOT more complaints about the Parkway route from NIMPs (Not In My Park). I think that most of the anti-Byron comments have come from people guessing that the Byron residents will be against a train there.

The Browning Corridor, on the other hand, has residents up in arms. They honestly feel that the corridor is their parkland, with the 7 or so I talked to un-aware that it is actually a transportation corridor. They think that the roads are going through parkland.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I found it inteserting that Scenario 3 needs a bus by-pass to be built so that the Eastern Transitway could be converted to rail, but such a by-pass is not required for Scenario 4, which also converts the Eastern Transitway. When I asked about this, the (MRC) consultant said that there were other routes which could be used for Scenario 4. He wasn't sure why such routes could not be used for Scenario 3. Maybe it has something to do with the section between St. Laurent and Blair since that section is not to be converted in Scenario 4, phase 1. (The consultant did seem to have reservations about the ability of the St. Laurent Station to act as a major LRT/BRT transfer station. This might indicate that Scenario 4 is not a real option, but was added to pad out the choices to four. They seem to like four things in the choice list.)

Scenario 4, Phase 1 (I just love this stuff... Option 4, Scenario 3, Phase 1) is from Baseline to Blair. It's Scenario 2, Phase 1 that does Baseline to St. Laurent. So your original question - why does Sc.3 need a by-pass built but Sc.4 doesn't - still holds.

Frankly, I don't know why one would have reservations about St. Laurent Station acting as a transfer station. The upper deck is enormous - it's 200 m from end to end with platform space on both sides - and it has escalators to move people between levels (assuming they're working, that is). It does lack a bit for lay-by space, but the St. Laurent bus garage is not too far away and borrowing some parking space from the mall shouldn't be out of the question. I'm not arguing in favour of using it, but realistically it's probably the most suitable station we currently have for the job.

[sumo]

Originally Posted by Dado

Frankly, I don't know why one would have reservations about St. Laurent Station acting as a transfer station. The upper deck is enormous - it's 200 m from end to end with platforms space on both sides - and it has escalators to move people between levels (assuming they're working, that is). It does lack a bit for lay-by space, but the St. Laurent bus garage is not too far away and borrowing some parking space from the mall shouldn't be out of the question. I'm not arguing in favour of using it, but realistically it's probably the most suitable station we currently have for the job.

I don't think the problem is the station layout itself from a pedestrian perspective. The non-transitway approaches to the station are awkward and the upper deck is a pretty tight loop. There isn't a lot of room to improve the in and out flow of buses to the upper deck. It's a good transfer station for local routes but not for BRT<->LRT.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by sumo

I don't think the problem is the station layout itself from a pedestrian perspective. The non-transitway approaches to the station are awkward and the upper deck is a pretty tight loop. There isn't a lot of room to improve the in and out flow of buses to the upper deck. It's a good transfer station for local routes but not for BRT<->LRT.

I can see what you mean. But I note that there is also an access ramp to the upper deck off the Queensway on-ramp at the east end of the platform, which, if it could be made use of, would improve things vastly. So what's required is a tiny bit of outside-the-box thinking to make use of that ramp...

Here's the Google Maps link:
http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en...03884&t=k&z=18

Not that it matters, since St. Laurent isn't ideal for other reasons, namely not really being close enough to the edge of the Greenbelt.

[ikerrin]

Originally Posted by Franky

We don't need a new road into the core. The core is at capacity. We need public transit into the core.

Exactly! I don't understand why commuter rail is not factored into this plan though. We can serve Barhaven with the existing Via line and we could serve southern Kanata with a line out to Arnprior. Make sure that there is one stop to transfer to the O-Train, and then a terminus at the Via Station and then Kanata and Barhaven are part of the system. The great thing about commuter rail over LRT is that it runs fast and it has enormous capacity.

I don't see why we are fixated on just LRT for our Rapid Transit system. Go trains are a lot more rapid than subways in Toronto.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by ikerrin

Exactly! I don't understand why commuter rail is not factored into this plan though. We can serve Barhaven with the existing Via line and we could serve southern Kanata with a line out to Arnprior. Make sure that there is one stop to transfer to the O-Train, and then a terminus at the Via Station and then Kanata and Barhaven are part of the system. The great thing about commuter rail over LRT is that it runs fast and it has enormous capacity.

I don't see why we are fixated on just LRT for our Rapid Transit system. Go trains are a lot more rapid than subways in Toronto.

I think commuter trains need to serve very large populations to be cost-effective and to get frequency of service, but I agree that an electrified, fast way to get from our growing "suburbs" - Kanata, Barhaven, Orleans and even Gatineau, would be a step in the right direction. Finding the right technology to accomplish this goal isn't so easy. BRT isn't quite green, trolley buses are limited to 80 km/h and LRT is much too expensive.

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by Deez

Did anyone catch the fact that before any rail line is operational, the Strandherd-Armstrong Bridge will be constructed, the Alta Vista corridor will be constructed (in part) and the 174 will be widened to 6 lanes?

Lame.

I was thinking a bit about this riding the bus down the old 174 this morning....

This is where the city planners are a bit blind. Why pay to widen the 174? It would make more sense to either build the LRT/rail/O-train right to Orleans or build a BRT to Orleans for latter conversion and then they would get the extra lane on the 174 basically for free except for a bit of work around some (although not all) of the interchanges. They would be working in those areas to make the LRT or BRT work anyway.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by Franky

I think commuter trains need to serve very large populations to be cost-effective and to get frequency of service, but I agree that an electrified, fast way to get from our growing "suburbs" - Kanata, Barhaven, Orleans and even Gatineau, would be a step in the right direction. Finding the right technology to accomplish this goal isn't so easy. BRT isn't quite green, trolley buses are limited to 80 km/h and LRT is much too expensive.

The new commuter train in Montréal will be one train in the morning daily. To save 30 minutes on my trip, I would plan my day around that train too. It's not different than an express bus.

[Franky]

Originally Posted by d_jeffrey

The new commuter train in Montréal will be one train in the morning daily. To save 30 minutes on my trip, I would plan my day around that train too. It's not different than an express bus.

Are you suggesting we lay track to Kanata, Barhaven, Orleans and Gatineau to run a single train in the morning?