Trillium Line Upgrades & Extension (Stage 2) [Greenboro to Airport/Limebank] | U/C

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by AndyMEng

I don't follow. How could they locate the station better? So that it's connected physically with no stairs to the Walkley transitway station?

I lived at Walkley and Bank for years, and used to head south on the transitway to Greenboro to catch the train to head north. Now if you're heading north, you can just head down to the platform. (For YEARS I would watch my train pass by Walkley while I was waiting for a 97 for 1/2 hour at 8:00am when they should be going by every 3-5 minutes. Cursing the city for not having a platform at Walkley, and yet Confederation had a station to serve absolutely nobody.)

And if you're gonna say transfers from buses to rail, Walkley isn't the station for that. And if you're gonna say the station should be on the north side, I say whats the difference (Other than the crosswalk on the south side, which may require people waiting for a light)? Good on them for allowing densification in the Southern empty lands where homeless people and/or gypsies loved camping in the summer. They should do the same on the west side: squish the airport parkway on-ramp tight to the parkway and open up that entire wasted space for densification. The NIMBY's would hate it (*gets out popcorn*)

I for one appreciate that the City isn't going to spend another $50 or 100 or 150 million building a secondary bridge under Walkley, AND a secondary bridge under the parkway off-ramp AND a secondary bridge under the transitway off-ramp, only to scoot the train line 50 feet to the west so that the transitway and train lines are side-by-side. And what then? What if I wanted to keep heading North on a bus? I'd STILL have to go up the stairs and down the stairs...like an animal.

Stations should be close to the street that they serve not a football field length or longer away. Just remember there are buses running east and west from Walkley Station. You might want to transfer off those buses, as I would have liked to have in the past. Instead, I had to drive to Greenboro Station and hope I found a parking spot.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by AndyMEng

I lived at Walkley and Bank for years, and used to head south on the transitway to Greenboro to catch the train to head north. Now if you're heading north, you can just head down to the platform. (For YEARS I would watch my train pass by Walkley while I was waiting for a 97 for 1/2 hour at 8:00am when they should be going by every 3-5 minutes. Cursing the city for not having a platform at Walkley, and yet Confederation had a station to serve absolutely nobody.)

Nobody?

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by AndyMEng

(For YEARS I would watch my train pass by Walkley while I was waiting for a 97 for 1/2 hour at 8:00am when they should be going by every 3-5 minutes. Cursing the city for not having a platform at Walkley, and yet Confederation had a station to serve absolutely nobody.)

Confederation serves nobody... really? It is very busy at peak. Not only is there a big employment complex there, but lots of people transfer between train & bus at Confederation.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

Confederation serves nobody... really? It is very busy at peak. Not only is there a big employment complex there, but lots of people transfer between train & bus at Confederation.

Yes, the times I have taken the Trillium Line, there are generally people getting on and off at Confederation Station.

[Norman Bates]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

Confederation serves nobody... really? It is very busy at peak. Not only is there a big employment complex there, but lots of people transfer between train & bus at Confederation.

FWIW I've used confed several times and also seen students from the 118 get off there to continue into Carleton.

[AndyMEng]

Originally Posted by Norman Bates

FWIW I've used confed several times and also seen students from the 118 get off there to continue into Carleton.

Ok ok, I conflated 'Nobody' with 'less than 5% of the train's capacity'.

I too have seen these mythical transferrers at Heron Road. The few, the proud, the Postal Workers with acres of parking.

Also from the previous comments, what football field? You just go down the stairs and you're on the platform. I still don't get the gripe? So you get off the bus upstairs at Walkley, and you go down the stairs.

Although now you might get an even more mythical creature: The Heron Station-to-Trillium transferrer.

What Walkley is great for, is the people who live behind the Ruby Inn (which was me). Such a quick jaunt across the overpass and down to the platform. Although at night I would walk with my house keys between my fingers for the sketchyness. And in the winter a full snowsuit is a must for the wind in the area. But the 1960's parkway design is to blame, not the station.

[Uhuniau]

The fact that a particular transit station or stop doesn't serve many people, or doesn't serve you, isn't a good indicator of whether it's a useful thing.

[Truenorth00]

So....I guess we should discuss how Moose's proposal changes Stage 2. With a single track is there any capacity to share or will a second track be necessary? Would OC Transpo's DMU fleet be allowed to operate with the bi-levels that Moose is proposing (at least they show bi-levels all over their site) given the waiver OC Transpo got?

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

So....I guess we should discuss how Moose's proposal changes Stage 2. With a single track is there any capacity to share or will a second track be necessary? Would OC Transpo's DMU fleet be allowed to operate with the bi-levels that Moose is proposing (at least they show bi-levels all over their site) given the waiver OC Transpo got?

How could they ever justify bi-level trains? Smaller trains would be cheaper to operate.

I don't know how they could run more trains on the Trillium Line without full double tracking.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

How could they ever justify bi-level trains? Smaller trains would be cheaper to operate.

Ask them. All their stuff shows bi-levels.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Ask them. All their stuff shows bi-levels.

There isn't a big enough population base to support it in my opinion. Unlike Toronto, Ottawa does not have huge satellite cities and I don't buy that regional rail will ever effectively serve Kanata, Orleans or Barrhaven. There is already an expectation of frequent service in all of them.

The other question with so many trains to run through Bayview, where are all these behemoth bi-levels going to be stored and brought into and out of service. It is not as if Bayview is anything like Toronto's Union Station with several tracks running through the station. Even Ottawa station has its limitations.

[White Pine]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Ask them. All their stuff shows bi-levels.

There's a trhead on Urban Toronto about MOOSE, and Joseph Potvin seems to be a somewhat regular poster on that thread, answering some questions and stuff. This may have been posted before, but here it is:

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads...-region.25806/

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by White Pine

There's a trhead on Urban Toronto about MOOSE, and Joseph Potvin seems to be a somewhat regular poster on that thread, answering some questions and stuff. This may have been posted before, but here it is:

http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads...-region.25806/

Saw that thread. The answers there are about the same as the ones here: lacking in substantive detail. And there's far fewer people in that forum who seem to be from Ottawa and aware of the issues.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There isn't a big enough population base to support it in my opinion. Unlike Toronto, Ottawa does not have huge satellite cities and I don't buy that regional rail will ever effectively serve Kanata, Orleans or Barrhaven. There is already an expectation of frequent service in all of them.

The other question with so many trains to run through Bayview, where are all these behemoth bi-levels going to be stored and brought into and out of service. It is not as if Bayview is anything like Toronto's Union Station with several tracks running through the station. Even Ottawa station has its limitations.

I can't imagine running bilevels along that line based on the current population, if it ever came to fruition it'd probably be using something like diesel railcars. I think trains don't terminate in Bayview but continue on to the Quebec side to the Mason-Angers terminus, then turn around and do the reverse run. If, and only if, the line was double tracked between Bayview and the Ellwood diamond it's theoretically doable, but I can see platforms being a problem. Not so much the height, the high car trains can use a low floor platform, but the width.

Regardless of Moose, I'm really hoping the city finds some money to double track everything north of South Keys (even if they have to do single tracks at the bridge and tunnel at each end of Carleton U). With or without Moose then we could just send every other train to the Airport and Riverside South(ish).

[lrt's friend]

I will add, will bi-levels fit under all the bridges and through the Dow's Lake tunnel?

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I will add, will bi-levels fit under all the bridges and through the Dow's Lake tunnel?

Actually, I would say yes. The typical bombardier bi-levels actually are within the normal envelope of a freight car, for which the line was originally designed. The lower level actually sits very low between the wheels, so the total height of the car isn't as much as you'd think

[Richard Eade]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I will add, will bi-levels fit under all the bridges and through the Dow's Lake tunnel?

All of the current structures over the Trillium Line, including the Dow's Great Swamp Tunnel, were built with at least standard railway clearances so there should be no problem moving large, high, rail cars to Bayview Station – but perhaps not through that station.

Because the original mainline track that by-passed Bayview Station has been removed and the new station infrastructure put in its place, any future mainline (assuming that the track does eventually reconnect to the Prince of Wales Bridge to the north) will necessarily run on the station tracks – which are at an elevation of about two metres higher than the old mainline track. It is probable that the elevated tracks do not leave the minimum (legally) required clearance between the top of rail and the bottom of the Albert and Confederation Line overpasses.

I have not measured the clearance, but I seem to recall that there was very little distance between the top of the O-Train and the underside of the Albert Structure. That is fine for a private spur, as it had been, but it is not sufficient for a regulation mainline. When the City bought an active rail line, it was agreeing to maintain a minimum required standard; which may not be met with the City’s current plan.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by Richard Eade

I have not measured the clearance, but I seem to recall that there was very little distance between the top of the O-Train and the underside of the Albert Structure. That is fine for a private spur, as it had been, but it is not sufficient for a regulation mainline. When the City bought an active rail line, it was agreeing to maintain a minimum required standard; which may not be met with the City’s current plan.

Assuming Moose could go ahead... a way more practical option for all involved would to see if they'd allow an exemption for mixed DMUs and mainline trains. The Americans granted it for the similarly sized Stadler GTW for the A-Train in Texas (http://www.masstransitmag.com/press_...hicle-for-dcta) the LINTs do have a at-grade crossing with mainline trains, and do extremely occasionally run mixed with freight trains in daylight hours to the NCR site (and far more frequently to the Walkley yard). A GTW, LINT or Talent type train is designed for this kind of commuter service in the first place.

[Allandale25]

In case it's of interest in this forum, here's a map I did to compare the Moose Plan and the City's Stage 2 plan. I'm not from Ottawa so I created this to help me visualize what's being discussed. I posted it in Urban Toronto where this is also being discussed. Sorry for the size of the picture. Not sure how to scale it down.

[waterloowarrior]

Staff report update on Stage 2 implementation incl revised mapping for LRT south extension
http://app05.ottawa.ca/sirepub/agdoc...&itemid=364105