Local transit in central Ottawa

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

To what end?

Because not everyone wants to go downtown.

[TransitZilla]

I'm sympathetic to Uniahu's point of view here. We should have better transit on our urban mainstreets.

Regarding Montreal Road specifically, a subway would be a dream, but this is decades away if ever. Not only would it be horrifically expensive, the density is not there. A significant portion of Montreal Rd (at the terminus of a potential subway) is bordered by a cemetery. And the neighbourhood would likely freak out at the prospect of the scale of development that would be needed to achieve the required density to make a subway viable.

And I share the concern that the upcoming Montreal Rd reconstruction could be a step back for transit, although the improved sidewalks and cycle tracks should be of great benefit to the neighbourhood. But I don't think it will necessarily be bad for transit:

- There will still be a westbound bus lane and the plan is for the bus lane hours to be extended.
-There is planned to be an eastbound queue jump at Vanier Parkway to speed eastbound buses.
-Consolidating some stops and ensuring they are optimally placed will reduce bus delay.
-Transit signal priority technology, if added as part of the reconstruction, and combined with optimal stop placement, could significantly reduce signal delay.

And there are some other proven strategies that the city could employ to further improve transit even with the narrowed roadway:

1) Implement bus-lane cameras like NYC to ensure the bus lane and queue jump lanes are not abused by motorists
2) Implement off-board fare collection, allocate 100% articulated buses and allow all-door boarding to reduce dwell times (NYC also does this with their "Select Bus Service").
3) Closely monitor and manage frequencies to ensure they are consistent to reduce crowding and minimize the number of cancelled trips.
4) Provide shelters and real-time arrival information at all stops.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

It will be a nice thing to have when there are nasty things happening that block regular bus movements, but as a primary way of getting downtown, anywhere north of Overbrook it doesn't make a lot of sense.

But Overbrook is west of St. Laurent. I think he was thinking east of Blair. Is the best way downtown for them to travel the 5+km along Montreal Rd? Is there much synergy for travel along Montreal Rd east and west of Blair?

[acottawa]

A few ideas for the central area of the city, at various price points.

Accelerate replacement of the Cummings bridge. It is 100 years old and I am sure it is due for replacement at some point. A wider bridge could have transit priority lanes, a proper right turn lane for river road as well as proper space for pedestrians and cyclists.

Let buses on the aviation parkway. This is the most overbuilt road in the entire city. Beyond serving the college and hospital, buses could take pressure off the East-West routes.

Fewer seats. There are way too many seats on buses leading to longer dwell times as people try to get on and off, stroller movements, wheelchair movements, etc.

Fewer stops. "Frequent" routes like the 14 have stops as little as 100m apart.

Make the downtown portion of bank transit only There are no entrances to garages or other reason why cars need to be on bank and this is often the slowest portion of the trip.

Extend hours of Rideau bus lanes There is lots of side street parking and parked cars screw up the many routes that use Rideau.

Enforce bus lanes and left turn bans Violations cause pointless delays.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

But Overbrook is west of St. Laurent. I think he was thinking east of Blair. Is the best way downtown for them to travel the 5+km along Montreal Rd? Is there much synergy for travel along Montreal Rd east and west of Blair?

Beyond Blair, there is significant density whereas Blair itself has low density. This has affected the location of the bus route for decades. It gives riders a choice. As others have said, not everybody is heading downtown and Route 12 also gives access to shopping and non-downtown employment locations.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

A few ideas for the central area of the city, at various price points.

Accelerate replacement of the Cummings bridge. It is 100 years old and I am sure it is due for replacement at some point. A wider bridge could have transit priority lanes, a proper right turn lane for river road as well as proper space for pedestrians and cyclists.

Let buses on the aviation parkway. This is the most overbuilt road in the entire city. Beyond serving the college and hospital, buses could take pressure off the East-West routes.

Fewer seats. There are way too many seats on buses leading to longer dwell times as people try to get on and off, stroller movements, wheelchair movements, etc.

Fewer stops. "Frequent" routes like the 14 have stops as little as 100m apart.

Make the downtown portion of bank transit only There are no entrances to garages or other reason why cars need to be on bank and this is often the slowest portion of the trip.

Extend hours of Rideau bus lanes There is lots of side street parking and parked cars screw up the many routes that use Rideau.

Enforce bus lanes and left turn bans Violations cause pointless delays.

Cummings Bridge is a heritage structure. It will not be replaced unless the replacement is almost identical in design at much higher cost. Widening to 6 lanes allows what? When access at both ends is 4 lanes. It sounds like a very expensive bridge replacement only to add cycle tracks.

Buses on the Aviation Parkway accomplish very little and what do they connect to? It is remote to the college compared to the current bus route and although not as bad for the Montfort, who are we delivering to a community hospital when nobody lives on the Aviation Parkway? As I said, what does it connect to? Buses have only one southern exit, Ogilvie Road otherwise we are on the 417. No connectivity to rapid transit until we get to St. Laurent and few local residents served.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Beyond Blair, there is significant density whereas Blair itself has low density. This has affected the location of the bus route for decades. It gives riders a choice. As others have said, not everybody is heading downtown and Route 12 also gives access to shopping and non-downtown employment locations.

If someone lives near the Newfoundland Pub area of Montreal (medium density area, getting denser) they are a 5 minute drive from Blair Station (probably about 10 minutes if there were a direct bus route). By transit they are 25 minutes from Blair or 25-40 minutes from downtown.

[lrt's friend]

It never ceases to amaze me that we continue to want to reduce car access to downtown and seemingly every road that leads to downtown while not improving a transit alternative to compensate.

It is great to improve cycling infrastructure but it does serve a limited demographic, and is restricted by our climate and the length of trips.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Beyond Blair, there is significant density whereas Blair itself has low density. This has affected the location of the bus route for decades. It gives riders a choice. As others have said, not everybody is heading downtown and Route 12 also gives access to shopping and non-downtown employment locations.

But if you gave those east of Blair more and better options to get to Blair Station, some would use that instead of the 12, freeing up space on it for those further along the route.

After stage 2, I would like to see a bus loop at the Montreal Rd station, and have the 12 end there (along with other local bus routes). A separate route could be used to serve Ogilvie and Jasmine. Having the 12 double back like that doesn't make any sense.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

If someone lives near the Newfoundland Pub area of Montreal (medium density area, getting denser) they are a 5 minute drive from Blair Station (probably about 10 minutes if there were a direct bus route). By transit they are 25 minutes from Blair or 25-40 minutes from downtown.

There already is a more direct bus route to Blair in that area. It used to be the 129, not sure of the new number.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Cummings Bridge is a heritage structure. It will not be replaced unless the replacement is almost identical in design at much higher cost. Widening to 6 lanes allows what? When access at both ends is 4 lanes. It sounds like a very expensive bridge replacement only to add cycle tracks.

Buses on the Aviation Parkway accomplish very little and what do they connect to? It is remote to the college compared to the current bus route and although not as bad for the Montfort, who are we delivering to a community hospital when nobody lives on the Aviation Parkway? As I said, what does it connect to? Buses have only one southern exit, Ogilvie Road otherwise we are on the 417. No connectivity to rapid transit until we get to St. Laurent and few local residents served.

Every other heritage bridge in the city has been replaced or massively renovated in the last few years. Why is Cummings more historically significant than all of the canal bridges?

With some changes it could connect directly to Cyrville. Otherwise it could connect to St Laurent or Blair. The advantage is speed - it takes two minutes to get from Montreal to Ogilve along the parkway (maybe 4 if there are a few stops) and there is never any congestion. OC Transpo has this obsession with channeling riders the entire length of Montreal road. This makes no sense for many riders who just want to get to an LRT station.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

But if you gave those east of Blair more and better options to get to Blair Station, some would use that instead of the 12, freeing up space on it for those further along the route.

After stage 2, I would like to see a bus loop at the Montreal Rd station, and have the 12 end there (along with other local bus routes). A separate route could be used to serve Ogilvie and Jasmine. Having the 12 double back like that doesn't make any sense.

That may be an option. Route 24 goes down Ogilvie, but Montreal Road station is a dead zone with no amenities. Blair provides shopping and additional transfer connections. Route 12 presently acts as the main local route for the area east of Blair.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Every other heritage bridge in the city has been replaced or massively renovated in the last few years. Why is Cummings more historically significant than all of the canal bridges?

With some changes it could connect directly to Cyrville. Otherwise it could connect to St Laurent or Blair. The advantage is speed - it takes two minutes to get from Montreal to Ogilve along the parkway (maybe 4 if there are a few stops) and there is never any congestion. OC Transpo has this obsession with channeling riders the entire length of Montreal road. This makes no sense for many riders who just want to get to an LRT station.

What heritage bridge has been replaced and actually expanded? Not the Plaza bridge downtown, not the Laurier bridge, not the Pretoria Bridge, not the Bank Street Bridge, not the bridge at Hog's Back. The Bronson, Queensway and MacKenzie King bridges are not heritage structures, but other than perhaps the Queensway, none have been expanded.

There are several bus routes that provide more direct connections to LRT stations that cross Montreal Road.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There already is a more direct bus route to Blair in that area. It used to be the 129, not sure of the new number.

The 129 will become the 25 (same as the 94). So the route will be Millennium to Carsons via Blair and La Cite

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

What heritage bridge has been replaced and actually expanded? Not the Plaza bridge downtown, not the Laurier bridge, not the Pretoria Bridge, not the Bank Street Bridge, not the bridge at Hog's Back. The Bronson, Queensway and MacKenzie King bridges are not heritage structures, but other than perhaps the Queensway, none have been expanded.

Laurier Bridge was significantly widened a few years ago when it was rehabilitated. So was the McIlraith bridge (Main/Smyth) in the last 2 years.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

By your own numbers that's not even close.

Are you familiar with the concept of an order of magnitude?

In the decade plus that I've lived in the East end, Ive not seen much development in Vanier. If there's so much demand, where are the developers? Why are they rushing to put up high rises all over the core (even when it's not next to the LRT) but not even many midrises on Montreal? You can't blame the city for that. Demand is there or it isn't. Heck, there's a developer planning on a 50 storey condo at Bayview. That's not even in the downtown core.

You've not seen much development in part because the area has been grossly neglected by the city when it comes to investments in things like... transit.

I am well aware of the ambient market conditions and preferences, but the city's benign neglect, and periodic malignant antipathy towards the east end, is not helping.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

What heritage bridge has been replaced and actually expanded? Not the Plaza bridge downtown, not the Laurier bridge, not the Pretoria Bridge, not the Bank Street Bridge, not the bridge at Hog's Back. The Bronson, Queensway and MacKenzie King bridges are not heritage structures, but other than perhaps the Queensway, none have been expanded.

There are several bus routes that provide more direct connections to LRT stations that cross Montreal Road.

Laurier Bridge was almost totally replaced - they kept two supports (the green ones) but replaced the entire deck to a much wider state.

Pretoria was replaced with a replica.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Because not everyone wants to go downtown.

True, but the purpose of the 12, as it runs from Vanier to downtown (or vice-versa), is mostly about getting people from Vanier to downtown. The Confederation Line is not a subsitute for that travel desire line.

Where it doesn't deliver people from VAnier to downtown - say, delivering them from Sandy Hill to the NRC, or from Vanier to King Edward/Rideau - the Confederation Line is, likewise, not a substitute for that travel desire line.

There are plenty of trips from areas served by the 12, to other parts of town, for which a transfer to/from the Confederation Line make sense. But those trips are already being taken via local bus then Transitway bus. The Confederation Line is not going to act as a subsitute or alternative for more than a tiny handful of those using the 12 today. The routes just serve completely different purposes.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

In a perfect world, that would be how democracy works. Unfortunately lobby groups have much more power than individual citizens. The cycling community have developed very strong lobby groups, but I am unaware of any lobby groups fighting for transit improvements exclusively (there are broader environmental groups that also work with and support the cycling lobby groups).

As near as I can tell, the environmental groups have the same antipathies towards bus transit that the cycling groups do.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Lakeofthewood

Sometimes I wonder how regularly our politicians and head City / OC Transpo planners actually use public transit in this city. It doesn't need to be every day, but I would love for them to be able to understand what it is like to have to use the bus system in this city regularly. Maybe then they would be more inclined to improve things.

The Montreal Rd "transit priority" project continues to baffle me with how bad of a transit project it is.

I no longer consider it a transit project at all, except to the extent that it will actually result in worse transit performance from the point of view of the actual passenger.

It's a road and cycling project. Transit has very obviously taken a very back seat, and has been given short shrift in the planning and design phase.