Local transit in central Ottawa

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

-Consolidating some stops and ensuring they are optimally placed will reduce bus delay.

OC Transpo's view of "optimal" usually comes at the expense of connections, which greatly diminishes the value of the network, even if it marginally improves the value of a given line.

-Transit signal priority technology, if added as part of the reconstruction, and combined with optimal stop placement, could significantly reduce signal delay.

Is there any evidence that that technology is being deployed as part of the Montreal Road project? I've not seen it.

2) Implement off-board fare collection, allocate 100% articulated buses and allow all-door boarding to reduce dwell times (NYC also does this with their "Select Bus Service").

Not possible with so much RoW space being given over to cycle tracks. The cycle tracks will also be used as the reason why there can't be substantially more and better shelters and seating. Oh, and the new shelters that will be installed, will be of that crappy new design they inflicted on Rideau Street.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

But Overbrook is west of St. Laurent. I think he was thinking east of Blair. Is the best way downtown for them to travel the 5+km along Montreal Rd? Is there much synergy for travel along Montreal Rd east and west of Blair?

A good chunk of the 12's passenger load, especially outside peak, is to and from those intermediary destinations, yes.

Even if it weren't, there is ALWAYS inherent value in having single routes traversing the length of main streets, as the more urban part of Montreal Road is, and main commercial drags, as the more suburban part is. Direct, linear routes are a design value that OC Transpo has not always appreciated.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Enforce bus lanes and left turn bans Violations cause pointless delays.

This is the city whose police force straight up refuses to enforce the rules of the road as it is. They could already be ticketing those who impede the flow of traffic. They don't.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

That may be an option. Route 24 goes down Ogilvie, but Montreal Road station is a dead zone with no amenities. Blair provides shopping and additional transfer connections.

I agree the station is a dead zone, but for those east of Blair wanting to travel east or those in the east wanting to travel to somewhere east of Blair, having to go to Blair Station and backtrack isn't very attractive.

Also, having a station at Montreal Rd could change the dynamic of the area. A cafe could be built into the bus loop. Other TOD developments could pop up. I'm thinking the south-west corner would be the best spot for the loop as that bus road will no longer be needed.

Route 12 presently acts as the main local route for the area east of Blair.

It is that hybridization of routes that bothers me. If you want the a route to provide frequent, reliable service, make it a frequent reliable route and let local routes provide local service.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

But if you gave those east of Blair more and better options to get to Blair Station, some would use that instead of the 12, freeing up space on it for those further along the route.

Most of those east of Blair who are heading downtown are already giving their preference to the Transitway routes as opposed to the 12.

They two portions of the system already serve very different purposes. You might have some segment of the population that currently wouldn't ride a bus (local OR transitway) who will be induced to take the train, but again, that's not a displacement of the passenger load on the 12.

After stage 2, I would like to see a bus loop at the Montreal Rd station, and have the 12 end there (along with other local bus routes). A separate route could be used to serve Ogilvie and Jasmine. Having the 12 double back like that doesn't make any sense.

I think that would be a good move, too, but is there any sense that Montreal Road is going to be anything other than a train platform and a stop for a one-twenty-something suburban local?

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

OC Transpo's view of "optimal" usually comes at the expense of connections, which greatly diminishes the value of the network, even if it marginally improves the value of a given line.

Stops 300-400m apart should be reasonable. For signal priority to work you need the stops to be on the far side. That is what Toronto has done with the King St project.

Is there any evidence that that technology is being deployed as part of the Montreal Road project? I've not seen it.

I'd be shocked if it isn't. It doesn't require any physical space on the roadway. It is a technology solution that allows buses and traffic signals to talk so that green lights can be held until after the bus makes it through the intersection, and prevent buses from having to wait an entire light cycle.

Not possible with so much RoW space being given over to cycle tracks. The cycle tracks will also be used as the reason why there can't be substantially more and better shelters and seating. Oh, and the new shelters that will be installed, will be of that crappy new design they inflicted on Rideau Street.

The new fare payment machines are hardly bigger than parking meters so I don't see how this would be a problem. In fact in NYC, their off-board payment machines are re-purposed parking meters (like the old O-Train ticket machines).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

What heritage bridge has been replaced and actually expanded? Not the Plaza bridge downtown

The Plaza Bridge is a bit like the museum that has George Washington's hatchet, which is entirely original except that the head has been replaced twice, the handle three times, and the holster is a replica.

When they rebuilt it in the early 2000s, it was pretty much dentistry. Almost the whole thing was chipped away piece by piece and replaced with new material. (Good thing, too; it was mostly salt and rust.)

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

This is the city whose police force straight up refuses to enforce the rules of the road as it is. They could already be ticketing those who impede the flow of traffic. They don't.

It's a resource problem. That's why I suggested cameras. We'd probably have to ask the Province for permission but it would be worth it.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It is that hybridization of routes that bothers me. If you want the a route to provide frequent, reliable service, make it a frequent reliable route and let local routes provide local service.

A bus route can be frequent and reliable and local, IF we make the political choices that allow it to be.

On Montreal Road, the city has already made the opposite of those choices.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

Stops 300-400m apart should be reasonable. For signal priority to work you need the stops to be on the far side. That is what Toronto has done with the King St project.

OC Transpo's fetishizing of far-side stops puts them way too... far. They are placed so far past the intersections, especially when the road has suburban geometries, that the cross-connection is no longer convenient, and results in mis-timed connections.

I'd be shocked if it isn't. It doesn't require any physical space on the roadway. It is a technology solution that allows buses and traffic signals to talk so that green lights can be held until after the bus makes it through the intersection, and prevent buses from having to wait an entire light cycle.

Yup. When I've asked about that in the past, the response has been

The new fare payment machines are hardly bigger than parking meters so I don't see how this would be a problem.

You'd be amazed at what they consider to be too much space occupied by transit-centred things, when there are dozens of cyclists to accomodate.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Also, having a station at Montreal Rd could change the dynamic of the area. A cafe could be built into the bus loop. Other TOD developments could pop up. I'm thinking the south-west corner would be the best spot for the loop as that bus road will no longer be needed.

Most of the convenient walk-radius of the future Montreal Road station is occupied by the Queensway/Montreal/St-Joseph half-clover. It will probably induce some redevelopment of the underbuilt Canotek Road industrial estates, but at best there'll be Development Somewhere In The Vicinity Of Transit, which is all Ottawa developers seem to be able to visualize, rather than truly transit-ORIENTED development.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

OC Transpo's fetishizing of far-side stops puts them way too... far. They are placed so far past the intersections, especially when the road has suburban geometries, that the cross-connection is no longer convenient, and results in mis-timed connections.

This shouldn't be an issue on the new Montreal Rd. The protected intersection designs at North River and Vanier Pkwy will make their geometries far less suburban.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

It's a resource problem. That's why I suggested cameras. We'd probably have to ask the Province for permission but it would be worth it.

The City of Ottawa Police have gone on anti-jaywalking ticketing blitzes in recent years.

They have been dispatched to ticket delivery trucks and others blocking the Slater Transitway lanes when suburban express riders have been inconvenienced.

Bu they have never, that I have seen, carried out general anti-obstruction and -blocking blitzes in downtown trouble spots like Bank Street or, more recently, Laurier/King Edward.

That's not a resource problem.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

This shouldn't be an issue on the new Montreal Rd. The protected intersection designs at North River and Vanier Pkwy will make their geometries far less suburban.

The far-side stops are planned to be further from the actual intersections than they are now.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

there is ALWAYS inherent value in having single routes traversing the length of main streets, as the more urban part of Montreal Road is, and main commercial drags, as the more suburban part is. Direct, linear routes are a design value that OC Transpo has not always appreciated.

I agree. "Frequent" routes should be following long, straight paths as much as possible. Leave the dipsy-doodling to the "Local" routes. There are limits though to how far a route should travel along a main street though. Having the 12 continue along St. Joseph to Trim Rd (and beyond) would be overkill. It is finding that happy medium that is the challenge.

[1overcosc]

I was taking a look at the planned number of the Frequent-class routes and decided to take a gander at roughly how expensive it would be to upgrade every such route to a real frequency standard; say a minimum frequency of 10 minutes at peak and midday and 15 minutes evenings and weekends. This would cost around $20 million a year in increased bus service.. which is only a little bit more than the amount the city says the LRT saves them (I've heard both $15 million and $18 million at different occasions). If the city actually reinvested those savings into the bus network.. we could have had an actual frequent route network. Sad.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Every other heritage bridge in the city has been replaced or massively renovated in the last few years. Why is Cummings more historically significant than all of the canal bridges?

.

If my mind serves me right, Cummings Bridge was totally re-done maybe 5 or 10 years ago. In any event, it's certainly not due for replacement any time soon.

It actually looks quite nice.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

A few ideas for the central area of the city, at various price points.

Accelerate replacement of the Cummings bridge. It is 100 years old and I am sure it is due for replacement at some point. A wider bridge could have transit priority lanes, a proper right turn lane for river road as well as proper space for pedestrians and cyclists.

Let buses on the aviation parkway. This is the most overbuilt road in the entire city. Beyond serving the college and hospital, buses could take pressure off the East-West routes.

Fewer seats. There are way too many seats on buses leading to longer dwell times as people try to get on and off, stroller movements, wheelchair movements, etc.

Fewer stops. "Frequent" routes like the 14 have stops as little as 100m apart.

Make the downtown portion of bank transit only There are no entrances to garages or other reason why cars need to be on bank and this is often the slowest portion of the trip.

Extend hours of Rideau bus lanes There is lots of side street parking and parked cars screw up the many routes that use Rideau.

Enforce bus lanes and left turn bans Violations cause pointless delays.

Agreed on all points. With the "Fewer Stops" point I'd also extend that further to include a goal of optimal stop placement as well. Where bus stops are placed on the block can make a huge difference on the speed of transit. Generally, the standard spot for a bus stop in Ottawa is immediately before the intersection, so the bus loads/unloads while at the stop line. While this is arguably the most convenient stop location for pedestrian access, this is actually pretty much the worst case scenario when it comes to the speed of a bus route on high-volume single lane roads (the situation on most of the downtown local streets)... because if the light is red as the bus approaches it, half the time it can't actually make it to the stop because traffic is blocking the way, so it has to wait until the light goes green and traffic clears before it can reach the stop, and by the time the bus is finished loading and unloading passengers, the light is red again, so the bus is forced to wait twice at the same traffic light.

The ideal placement in such scenarios is immediately after the intersection (best example I can think of off the top of my head is the southbound #86 stop at Holland & Wellington - https://www.google.ca/maps/@45.39974...2!8i6656?hl=en). This reduces bus delays at intersections while still allowing for convenient pedestrian access.

Another factor is predictability for transit priority. Because you can never predict with any certainty how long a bus is going to be stopped at a stop (even one passenger waiting might be the one who asks the driver some questions, or might be an old lady who takes a while to get on), any system that manipulates traffic lights to get buses more greens is not going to work efficiently with near-side stops.

With the King Street pilot in Toronto, all stops have been relocated to far sides which has been a big part of the increase in reliability and speed.

Each urban mainstreet needs a comprehensive review of bus stops, to determine optimal spacing and optimal placement of bus stops.

A combination of off-peak (especially evening) frequency improvements, improved stop placement and spacing, transit priority, redesigned bus interiors to have more standing area and fewer seats, and better enforcement of traffic violations could serve as a very good and relatively inexpensive action plan to improving local transit on the urban mainstreets. IMO, we should implement that BEFORE we even put a moment's thought into the idea of a Rideau-Montreal subway. There's a lot that can be done with buses if we tried.

With Bank, it might be a good idea to implement something similar to the King Street pilot through the entirety of Centretown (from say Wellington to almost Catherine): cars are allowed to drive on Bank, but they are not permitted to go straight, so they're only allowed on Bank for one block at a time. (Maybe make some exceptions for minor side streets like Waverley, Maclaren, etc.) In that section O'Connor, Metcalfe, Kent, and Lyon are the high volume auto corridors and there's really no need to have through traffic on Bank as well. The only traffic that would be really inconvenienced is downtown peak period travellers, and they are perfectly served by the Confederation Line.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Because not everyone wants to go downtown.

This.

As they are now learning in Toronto. Building a downtown focused transit system has limits. Chief among them is that you remain car dependent for virtually all your other trips.

And you create concentrated points of failure. For example, any major incident that closes Union Station in Toronto would impede GO and the TTC.

I hope Ottawa learns from that mistake.

[Lakeofthewood]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This.

As they are now learning in Toronto. Building a downtown focused transit system has limits. Chief among them is that you remain car dependent for virtually all your other trips.

And you create concentrated points of failure. For example, any major incident that closes Union Station in Toronto would impede GO and the TTC.

I hope Ottawa learns from that mistake.

This is my biggest problem with Ottawa's transit system, and where I agree the most with Uhuniau's stance about inner urban transit getting no priority in this city vs the suburbs to downtown transit.

I live and work within the Greenbelt. For me to get to work it is either a 45 minute bus ride, a 12 minute drive or 20 minute bike ride. It is literally faster for me to jog to work than to take the bus.

It would be one thing if it was 10 minutes longer on the bus, I would take the bus over driving. But when it's actually three times longer on the bus that's crazy, especially given that I live and work right off of arterial roadways.