[Halifax] Permanent Wanderers Grounds Stadium | ? m | ? fl | Proposed

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I'm not against the city investing to turn it into a permanent stadium but converting common lands to private-only use does give me pause.

Agreed. In isolation this is great news. But in the bigger picture of the Common it is a little concerning. It actually gives a fair bit of strength to the arguments of the Friends of the Common. When the temporary stadium was proposed there were a lot of warnings from the FotC that eventually they'd be back for something permanent, and the Common would continue to be slowly eaten away. And here we are.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Agreed. In isolation this is great news. But in the bigger picture of the Common it is a little concerning. It actually gives a fair bit of strength to the arguments of the Friends of the Common. When the temporary stadium was proposed there were a lot of warnings from the FotC that eventually they'd be back for something permanent, and the Common would continue to be slowly eaten away. And here we are.

I don't understand the problem is with it. It has been a sports field for 100 years. It will always be a sports field. All they want to do it build spectators seating for the field. What's the problem with that?? Its ridiculous!

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

I don't understand the problem is with it. It has been a sports field for 100 years. It will always be a sports field. All they want to do it build spectators seating for the field. What's the problem with that?? Its ridiculous!

The team owner has said he is willing to enter into a 25 year lease - which is a worthless promise. Maybe he can lease the space for 25 years and spend his own money, all $20,000,000, and then lease the place on a sporadic basis to others who want to use it. Which won't happen because he would not risk his own money.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Colin May

The team owner has said he is willing to enter into a 25 year lease - which is a worthless promise. Maybe he can lease the space for 25 years and spend his own money, all $20,000,000, and then lease the place on a sporadic basis to others who want to use it. Which won't happen because he would not risk his own money.

Oh give me a break! The Wanderers have proven to be a success. It's not like the CFL, where if you build a stadium then it might be a success. Its ridiculous a city the size of Halifax cant even have a modest 10,000 seat stadium which can be used by the community for many other events.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Agreed. In isolation this is great news. But in the bigger picture of the Common it is a little concerning. It actually gives a fair bit of strength to the arguments of the Friends of the Common. When the temporary stadium was proposed there were a lot of warnings from the FotC that eventually they'd be back for something permanent, and the Common would continue to be slowly eaten away. And here we are.

I get a kick out of the modern arguments of groups like this as supposed stewards of a community legacy. The Original Common was a very large field primarily used so the Herds of animals needed to run the economy could graze and defecate. The Military would use it for exercise's and the public for short cuts.

The present use of the Wanderer's grounds are an excellent example of the evolved use of the space as a Victorian era Sports space that could be easily walked to in the last couple of Centuries. It is now easily walked to from the downtown Pubs. A feature that Halifax is known for all over North America.

The Friends of the Commons should be getting their ducks in a row to start advocating for the future of the VG sites parking lot. What is to happen to that space when the new Hospital concentrates care North? I would start a campaign for another Public Gardens. South.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

I get a kick out of the modern arguments of groups like this as supposed stewards of a community legacy. The Original Common was a very large field primarily used so the Herds of animals needed to run the economy could graze and defecate. The Military would use it for exercise's and the public for short cuts.

The present use of the Wanderer's grounds are an excellent example of the evolved use of the space as a Victorian era Sports space that could be easily walked to in the last couple of Centuries. It is now easily walked to from the downtown Pubs. A feature that Halifax is known for all over North America.

The Friends of the Commons should be getting their ducks in a row to start advocating for the future of the VG sites parking lot. What is to happen to that space when the new Hospital concentrates care North? I would start a campaign for another Public Gardens. South.

Good point! I think the VG site could be a great spot for a new park.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by IanWatson

Agreed. In isolation this is great news. But in the bigger picture of the Common it is a little concerning. It actually gives a fair bit of strength to the arguments of the Friends of the Common. When the temporary stadium was proposed there were a lot of warnings from the FotC that eventually they'd be back for something permanent, and the Common would continue to be slowly eaten away. And here we are.

Can anybody articulate what was lost from the switch-over? Maybe 3-4 dog walkers per game night now have to go to the other side of the street to the other empty grassy area? Or the graveyard, or the Public Gardens?

[kzt79]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

Oh give me a break! The Wanderers have proven to be a success. It's not like the CFL, where if you build a stadium then it might be a success. Its ridiculous a city the size of Halifax cant even have a modest 10,000 seat stadium which can be used by the community for many other events.

To be clear, a CFL stadium would be a massive loser for Halifax - no question about it whatsoever. Much larger, wealthier, and let's face it more economically sophisticated cities have been cleaned out to the tune of hundreds of millions. We wouldn't stand a chance.

I agree that is completely different from what appears proposed for the Wanderers.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by kzt79

To be clear, a CFL stadium would be a massive loser for Halifax. Much larger, wealthier, and let's face it more economically sophisticated cities have been cleaned out to the tune of hundreds of millions. We wouldn't stand a chance.

There are some good stadium developments and bad stadium developments. They are not really a money-maker but I would say they have high support in some places. Apparently Halifax's GDP is about $22B annually so I don't think a CFL-scale stadium is as potentially calamitous as it's often made out to be. It might not be a priority and that's fine.

One of the more successful CFL towns is Regina while I believe Montreal's CFL team operates in an old bare bones stadium at McGill.

[Summerville]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

Good point! I think the VG site could be a great spot for a new park.

I don't have a firm opinion on this,...but what about a new location for the Museum of Natural History...and Halifax Lancers?

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by Summerville

I don't have a firm opinion on this,...but what about a new location for the Museum of Natural History...and Halifax Lancers?

I agree. the Common in Halifax and the Common in Dartmouth have been used as free land by municipal governments and the province. They have no concept of the value of free and open public space - an essential element of all great cities.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

The Original Common was a very large field primarily used so the Herds of animals needed to run the economy could graze and defecate.

Best comment in the entire thread!

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Best comment in the entire thread!

Agreed!!

[KMcK]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

The Original Common was a very large field primarily used so the Herds of animals needed to run the economy could graze and defecate.

Don't tell dog lovers this. They'll form their own 'Friends of the Common' type group and lobby for the entire common to be an off leash dog park where their dogs can run free and fornicate and defecate while the owners pontificate about how wonderful it is to not have to pick up their dogs' poop.

[MonctonRad]

Fornication, defecation and pontification! Oh my..........

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Fornication, defecation and pontification! Oh my..........

Well .. it is a BIG field!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

I don't understand the problem is with it. It has been a sports field for 100 years. It will always be a sports field. All they want to do it build spectators seating for the field. What's the problem with that?? Its ridiculous!

You know, I've been thinking about this a little more, and the problem I have with this is how dismissive it is. A point is raised about keeping the commons available to the citizens, rather than basically give control to a for-profit organization, and I think it's a fair point, actually.

To be completely up front about it, I think that this is good use for the land, and it's nothing new in that it has a long history of hosting sporting events and sports teams. However, I do believe these were local amateur teams. Just the same, it's a great location for a permanent stadium, and the league/team appears to be very popular with the locals, so I say it's a good move to make it permanent, and keep a professional-level sport going in Halifax that is definitely a "plus" to the citizens (I say this even though I'm not a soccer/football fan and probably will never attend a game).

That said, it's a little surprising (or perhaps not, as people will always glaze over the details when they are getting something they want) that nobody thinks it's important enough to consider where this all goes from here. How much public money is going to support a for-profit enterprise, etc. Or maybe it's not all that important, as long as it adds to the vibrancy of the city.

As much as I'm not a proponent of everything that "friends of" organizations fight for, in reading their document there are good points raised and questions asked.

For example:

A 2017 HRM staff report states that the Wanderers Grounds was used to capacity by amateur players (football, lacrosse, rugby, touch football ultimate frisbee and soccer) averaging 325 hours/year and near its limit.(1) These players book the field and pay HRM for its use.

(Note: this information doesn't seem consistent with the 'dog walkers/dog poop' comments in this thread)

HRM staff also noted that hosting a professional soccer team at the Wanderers Grounds is not consistent with the more general use as the field must be maintained to a higher standard and overuse can impact the field.(4) Freedom of information requests (FOIPOPs) made by FHC have shown that Sports Atlantic has almost entirely excluded amateur players other than a very few sponsored events.

HRM’s 2017 staff report stated that a “temporary stadium on the Wanderers Grounds will also help indicate the viability of a larger permanent stadium in the region, which would have to be located elsewhere in an appropriate non-parkland context, and where more land is available.”

HRM closed the field in 2017 for improvements spending ~$1 million of public money. Just ahead of any public consultation on the Halifax Common Master Plan HRM permitted the temporary pop-up stadium by contract for $1200/game. Next the developer Derek Martin had the Mayor and Council change his contract so he would not have to remove the ’temporary’ bleachers and shipping containers at the end of the season. Then Martin convinced the Mayor and Council to extend his contract for subsequent seasons for $2400/game.

[Edit: I looked up the Wanderers home schedule and found that there are 14 home games scheduled for 2022. At $2400 per game, that means the Wanderers are paying the city $33,600 to use the field this year (excluding any playoff games that might happen there?). Not sure what the significance of this is, but it's another data point.]

According to the 1994 Halifax Common Master Plan the city committed to plan for the entire Halifax Common granted “to and for the use of the inhabitants of the town of Halifax as Common, forever” in 1763. Less than 20% of the Halifax Common remains as public open space.

Also there's mention of a request for $20 million of public money, but I don't know how that worked out.

Again, I still think the stadium is a good idea, but to label any questioning of the process as "ridiculous" is... well... ridiculous.

[atbw]

I will say after attending a game this afternoon, I would be on board with getting a proper stadium put in place, with the caveat that I hope it maintains the spirit of the Commons, IE having some level of public benefit to it. I do understand they may need to limit use on the field to protect it from overuse, of course.

It's quite nice what they've done with essentially scaffolding and sea cans, though.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Yesterday I was a guide at Mosaic Stadium for a tour being held for municipal representatives from across Canada. I got to chatting with a councillor from HRM and we got to the subject of the Commons. She just rolled her eyes and muttered that Haligoniens hate to spend money.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Yesterday I was a guide at Mosaic Stadium for a tour being held for municipal representatives from across Canada. I got to chatting with a councillor from HRM and we got to the subject of the Commons. She just rolled her eyes and muttered that Haligoniens hate to spend money.

Great attitude.

Just another selfless public servant "working for the people"...