Red Hill Creek Expressway

Originally Posted by Berklon

Well it's pretty much a moot point since the expressway is done (for the most part). I guess it's a wait and see kinda thing. I live right next to it so I can tell you first hand if the air is noticeably worse or not a while after it's in full swing.



I'm not sure that's all it does, but it definitely does that. A friend of mine (and a few of his acquaintences) are happy about being able to use the expressway on their commute to/from work as they live in Stoney Creek mountain and dread using Highway 20 (especially in the winter) to get to Burlington's GO Station.

Coincidentally a co-worker who lives in Milton (works in downtown Toronto) has expressed interest in moving to somewhere in the east mountain. When he asked about the commute to Toronto, I mentioned the expressway and that made him think even more seriously about moving here.

The Red Hill Valley Pkwy - Paving the way for Hamilton to become yet another bedroom community.

I mean come on (Hamilton council), if you want to handle the commuter problem, at least get the MTO to spend the money on having an actual GO- "TRAIN" in downtown Hamilton. I give this highway two thumbs down.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

It's hard to believe that we're still building highways to nowhere.

It's funny that the highway to nowhere actually attaches to another highway once it gets to nowhere --- it turns out that nowhere is not actually a dead end. And its also funny that tens of thousands of people live near each highway's access points.

What would you have done to get trucks up and down Hamilton Mountain?

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Remember one of the off ramps on the Red Hill is Barton St, what street is Centre Mall located on? What street is the new Lowe's on?

I can't imagine that whatever is happening at Centre Mall was dependent in any way upon the construction of the Red Hill expressway. I also don't really think it had a huge impact on the decision to build a Lowe's store on Barton, but maybe.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

yup....it'll be interesting to see how the media spins health effects and traffic effects on this part of the city over the next few years.
Remember - the city would NOT allow an air monitoring station to be set up at a local school to see what happens to the air over the next several years. I wonder why???

Does a four lane expressway contribute significantly more airborne pollutants than does a regular four lane road? Aren't all of these vehicles already on the road somewhere in Hamilton? How is excess pollution created?

[fastcarsfreedom]

Somedays I'm really glad you're around BCTed.

[DC83]

Originally Posted by BCTed

Does a four lane expressway contribute significantly more airborne pollutants than does a regular four lane road? Aren't all of these vehicles already on the road somewhere in Hamilton? How is excess pollution created?

Well Ted, with the hundreds of houses being built in the countless new developments at the top (southern end) of the Pkwy, and the fact that these people will not ride public transit, the amount of airborn pollutants due to vehicles is bound to rise!

Do you even live in this city, Ted? It seems your comments are generally ignorant towards the city?! (ie: no trucks zooming down Main St downtown)

[markbarbera]

Guys, time to let bygones be bygones. I was no fan of the expressway, but it is here now and, like it or not, it will impact positively on the city.

Hamilton needed a proper beltway to direct heavy traffic around the city and off core streets. Trips into the city can now spoke in from a circular route - RHE, LINC, 403, QEW. This gives us the opportunity to improve inner city roads. With the completion of this project, we can now look at calming King and Main Streets, reduce inner city speed limits, limiting truck traffic through the core via King, Main, Victoria/UpperJames, returning two-way traffic to King and Main, and allowing LRT to occupy lanes on King/Main. None of this could be practically obtained without a ring road around the city.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by DC83

Well Ted, with the hundreds of houses being built in the countless new developments at the top (southern end) of the Pkwy, and the fact that these people will not ride public transit, the amount of airborn pollutants due to vehicles is bound to rise!

The people living in those houses would still be using vehicles if they lived in other parts of the city and/or the expressway wasn't created. I don't see how this will increase airborn pollutants overall... it'll just increase it in the areas near the expressway. Overall there'll still be the same amount of people using their cars, they'll just be using it in different areas.

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by BCTed

Does a four lane expressway contribute significantly more airborne pollutants than does a regular four lane road? Aren't all of these vehicles already on the road somewhere in Hamilton? How is excess pollution created?

I can't believe there's still people around who don't understand this most basic of concepts:
highways attract MORE cars. They don't minimize traffic and they don't simply re-shuffle existing cars. They ADD more cars and more pollution to the city. If you don't believe me (and I know you won't) go read any studies on traffic impacts of highways....give it 3-5 years and there will be traffic jams on the highway AND surrounding streets. that's fact, proven time and time again in our society.

Re: trucks - I'd have built the upper deck over Centennial at a quarter of the cost and still linking QEW to Linc. Council didn't want to go with that option though (despite it's saving of the valley AND drastically reduced cost) because Losani and Desantis don't own land along Hwy 20. They already bought up their land at the top of Red Hill. Remember, you and I and the trucks didn't factor into this decision. Ultimately it was what the homebuilders told their puppets on council to do.

[fastcarsfreedom]

RTH--you're going to have to help me out on this one--how exactly would double-decking Centennial Parkway have ended up being cost-effective? As an advoacte of new-urbanism I would've expected that you'd realize that elevated highways are being REMOVED all-across North America for aesthetic and maintenance reasons. Over the long term how would maintaining what amounts to a long bridge, be cheaper? Are you aware of the exponential repair and maintenance costs associated with these sort of structures--particularly in cold climates? Have you drive on the Gardiner Expressway? Have you driven UNDER the Gardiner Expressway? If you're choosing to fight this battle on cost--how do you justify this argument with real numbers? If you're choosing to fight this battle on air quality--how do you justify what you deem to be toxic emissions, simply moving further east to Stoney Creek? Seems to me this is the old "Skyway should've been a tunnel" argument all over again.

In an only slightly related note, I cannot believe the moribund tenor this forum has taken of late. I am more convinced than ever that the real bridle holding back Hamilton from a more prosperous future is this grim, miserable, dour and negative attitude. While you are quick to point fingers at "suburban" residents who refuse to go Downtown--just put yourself in the position of someone outside the city and read this forum? It seems to me that 90% of the arguments about sprawl and development are branded as being "especially bad" in Hamilton--while in reality you can go anywhere and find the same trends--I'm not passing judgement on your opinion--you're entitled--let's just say there's Wal*Mart everywhere, not just Hamilton.

I hold up London, Ontario as an example--with all do respect (I generally don't like taking swipes at other towns)--London does not have nearly the diversity, population or physical beauty that Hamilton has--yet it is rare to find a Londoner that is not completely boastful about how wonderful their city. That is the RIGHT attitude--everyplace has it's warts, the sooner Hamilton stops dwelling on it's own...the better.

[DC83]

^^ AMEN, rth!!!!

Today's Spec Poll:

Today's Poll »


Will the Red Hill Valley Parkway improve life in Hamilton?
Yes (75.00 %)
No (24.51 %)

wow... you know you're in Hamilton when!! haha

Last time I checked, increased air pollution did not "improve life" anywhere!!

[raisethehammer]

sorry..I should have clarified. the 'upper deck over centennial' wasn't my idea.
it was developed by some local engineers at Mac (you'd have to look back through the mess of Red Hill info to find it) and their total construction cost estimates were between 1/4 and 1/3 of Red Hill. Obviously i'm no fan of upper deck highways, but you can be sure that other cities that are taking them down aren't taking them down along strips like Centennial.
ongoing costs would need to be figured out I'm sure...they'll be high in both cases. it was basically a 1 or 2-lane truck 'flyover' if I remember correctly.

I'd suggest that if the forum isn't the exact 'tone' you'd like it may be because some folks are suggesting that "it's over now...lets move on".
fact is construction is over. now comes the real 'proof of the pudding'. should this road have died once and for all in the 50's or will it be a blessing to Hamilton's economy. As a side note: it will be a nice little convenience for those who live along it, but that doesn't make it better for our economy. hopefully it will take trucks off local roads - that would be good.
air quality will probaby worsen - bad.
traffic congestion will worsen - bad.
more sprawl will occur on the east mountain- bad.
(cross your fingers for this one) Thousands of well-paying, high end manufacturing jobs will locate into the glanbrook industrial park - good.

on and on the list goes...now is the time to observe and see what happens.
I have no problem with that at all. In fact, I can't wait.

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by Berklon

The people living in those houses would still be using vehicles if they lived in other parts of the city and/or the expressway wasn't created. I don't see how this will increase airborn pollutants overall... it'll just increase it in the areas near the expressway. Overall there'll still be the same amount of people using their cars, they'll just be using it in different areas.

No! If they lived in other parts of the city they wouldn't necessarily be using vehicles.

If effort (and money) was focussed on things such as:
-Building code reform (allowing mixed use buildings)
-Transit improvements (specifically rail)
-Creating land tax laws that do not favour vacant lots and surface parking
-Attracting businesses to the core (through tax incentives, neighbourhood cleanup, etc)

Then people and businesses would have a reason to locate INSIDE the city where they don't need to drive so far on a day to day basis.

Instead we are focussed on making it easier and cheaper for businesses to locate at the far reaches of the city limits, and that will end up costing ALL of us in the long run!

[Da Warrior]

I am in no way picking on you DC83, just stating what I know.

this project is the biggest mistake this city has ever made!
All it does it create a faster route for Toronto commuters to get to their upper stoney creek townhouses.

Upper Stoney Creekers will NOT shop at Centre Mall, they will drive to Lowes, get back on the Pkwy to their shelters, err homes and discuss how scary it was to be on Barton St. I grew up in Uppr SC, and therefor talk to my mom, her neighbours, my friends, their rents, etc. Almost all of which say they would most likely not shop at the new Centre. I say, "But they're going to have a Great Canadian Superstore!!" they respond, "So... there's a mega-Fortinos with all the same stuff right around the corner!?" and so on...

You make it seem like anyone in Hamilton really cares about Centre mall, besides the people that live within a 20 min walk of Centre Mall. I know it sounds sad and messed up, but it's true and this coming from someone that works at Centre Mall. Serious ask anyone about the Centre Mall Reno that doesn't live in the immediate area, and if they will shop there when it's done and this is what you'll get .

with the hundreds of houses being built in the countless new developments at the top (southern end) of the Pkwy, and the fact that these people will not ride public transit, the amount of airborn pollutants due to vehicles is bound to rise!

Simple answer as to why people don't use public transit in that area is that service sucks plan and simple. What other part of Hamilton has as poor transit per capita? Remember HSR only serves a very small part of Upper Stoney Creek only West of Upper Centennial, not to mention no service in Binbrook/Glanbrook.

If I’m not mistaken they have 2 bus routes in the area. Stonechurch runs I think every 30mins and once an hr after 6pm No Sunday service (this is all off the top of my head I apologize if I’m wrong). With Parkdale running every 30 mins and once an hour after 8pm.


Now I think this will improve vastly as that area is one of the top priorities for HSR, so there must be a demand there. It could see 2 new routes, Rymal Rd bus is a go for next year (Peak hour service at first, and possibly a bus route from Eastgate all the way up cenntenial into the area.

This HGWY definitely has it pros and cons but I’m going to embrace it even though it should have been built how many years ago.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by fastcarsfreedom

Somedays I'm really glad you're around BCTed.

Right back at you, fastcarsfreedom. I am glad that everyone is around.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by DC83

Do you even live in this city, Ted? It seems your comments are generally ignorant towards the city?! (ie: no trucks zooming down Main St downtown)

However ignorant I may or may not be, I have never claimed that there are no trucks on downtown Main Street. I have simply not observed any real truck traffic --- certainly nothing to get into hysterics over.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I can't believe there's still people around who don't understand this most basic of concepts:
highways attract MORE cars. They don't minimize traffic and they don't simply re-shuffle existing cars. They ADD more cars and more pollution to the city. If you don't believe me (and I know you won't) go read any studies on traffic impacts of highways....give it 3-5 years and there will be traffic jams on the highway AND surrounding streets. that's fact, proven time and time again in our society.

Re: trucks - I'd have built the upper deck over Centennial at a quarter of the cost and still linking QEW to Linc. Council didn't want to go with that option though (despite it's saving of the valley AND drastically reduced cost) because Losani and Desantis don't own land along Hwy 20. They already bought up their land at the top of Red Hill. Remember, you and I and the trucks didn't factor into this decision. Ultimately it was what the homebuilders told their puppets on council to do.

This highway does not extend into any new areas --- it is a brief stretch of road that accesses existing, mostly urban, parts of the city. I do not buy DC83's argument that this road will take people off of buses and put them into cars. If the total amount of automobile traffic increases as a result of this highway, then I imagine it will have increased as a result of an influx of people and/or businesses --- something like that would be a good thing on the whole.

This is the first that I have heard about an upper deck over Centennial Parkway. It sounds prohibitively expensive and I do have trouble believing that a raised highway would be less expensive than one built mostly on the ground. Any links?

As for the tone around here, there is often a "my way or the highway" type of attitude on display by some of the more militant types. I will gladly take the highway.

[flar]

This road will change Upper Stoney Cr. East Hamilton and the East Mountain. There will be tons of development, ablbeit not the kind most of us on this board like. The thing to do now is push for more enlightened development at the southern terminus of RHVP.

It will make some residential areas of East Hamilton more attractive. Ask the average person and they like living close to highway access. The only reason Lowes and the Centre Mall redevelopment are happening is really because of the highway. These places also locate near highway access because that's how they can increase their potential customer base.

This highway makes it easier to commute to Burlington, Oakville and Mississauga (TO is still too far). Many Hamiltonians work in these places, because industries and offices located along the QEW and 403, instead of Hamilton, because they like to be located along highways. Many companies moved from Hamilton to these locations.

Now Hamilton has more land with highway access and I see no reason why industries will not locate within Hamilton now. Manufacturing especially relies on just in time delivery, which means trucks, and shipping costs are reduced when the trucks can easily access the industries along highways.

This is the reality, it's like this everywhere. While I don't believe this is an excuse to pave over a big valley, that damage is now done. It is essential for the long term health of Hamilton that we attract more employment. The city will never realize its potential with so much poverty and underemployment. With anything, there is a hierarchy of needs, and the basic need of many Hamiltonians is a decent job.

The net effect of the highway is likely to be positive: fewer trucks on city streets, more jobs, increasing real estate values in east Hamilton (which increases the equity and spending power of those residents), increasing population, higher tax base for the city, more construction, more disposable income, etc. All these things make Hamilton's economic picture look better, and this is all that is important to banks and investors, who may one day even loan money to people for downtown projects.

[SteelTown]

^ well said!

[raisethehammer]

Originally Posted by BCTed

However ignorant I may or may not be, I have never claimed that there are no trucks on downtown Main Street. I have simply not observed any real truck traffic --- certainly nothing to get into hysterics over.