Calgary Stoney Trail [Ring Road]

[fusili]

Originally Posted by speedog

Where else would you expect developers to put new communities? Pretty much all of the available land that can be developed is oitsude of the ring road corridor.

Belvedere- along a rapid transit corridor (SE 17 BRT/eventual LRT)
Keystone Hills- along a rapid transit corridor (Green Line BRT/LRT)
North East communities- along a rapid transit corridor (NE LRT)
SE (Seton Area)- along a rapid transit corridor (Green Line BRT)

Providence- Isolated beyond belief.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by fusili

Belvedere- along a rapid transit corridor (SE 17 BRT/eventual LRT)
Keystone Hills- along a rapid transit corridor (Green Line BRT/LRT)
North East communities- along a rapid transit corridor (NE LRT)
SE (Seton Area)- along a rapid transit corridor (Green Line BRT)

Providence- Isolated beyond belief.

Yeah I never got Providence. It's sprawl at it's worse, with next to no ability to be anything more than lower-density sprawl. On a long enough timeline you could make this area more connected, but not in anyone's lifetime here particularly with countless other areas - suburbs included - that would take higher priority. It's just a trip generator to give the SWRR stretch some additional trips in 30 years. Suburban development has to go somewhere, Providence should never be a priority.

I am excited about the Keystone Hills and Seton projects along the ring road. they have some excellent designs and look to be much more flexible as to take advantage of being truly a mixed-modal commuting districts - varying density and land use, great road access, rapid transit provisions, cycling paths / tracks from opening day.

[Nudrock]

Originally Posted by fusili

Belvedere- along a rapid transit corridor (SE 17 BRT/eventual LRT)
Keystone Hills- along a rapid transit corridor (Green Line BRT/LRT)
North East communities- along a rapid transit corridor (NE LRT)
SE (Seton Area)- along a rapid transit corridor (Green Line BRT)

Providence- Isolated beyond belief.

But yet people will buy in Providence because they want to.

[speedog]

Belvedere, Keystone Hills and Seton would all be area's that would be cut off from the city per lineman's post above as all lie outside of the ring road

[MalcolmTucker]

There is land yeah. But planning provisions? Nothing I've seen.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

If the initial concepts for the Providence area are implemented it could be an interesting area. The main road would be focused on a BRT route and the area dubbed a 'Streetcar Suburb' (with a (very) long term eye to conversion to an E-W LRT line.)

http://www.placemakers.com/stories-f...lgary-alberta/

[IMG]https://calgaryringroad.files.wordpr...prov1.jpg/IMG]

[IMG]https://calgaryringroad.files.wordpr...prov2.jpg/IMG]

[IMG]https://calgaryringroad.files.wordpr...5/01/prov3.jpg[/MG]



As for N-S connectivity, although I knew that the SW Ring Road agreement contained clauses that provided for the ability to use the corridor for a N-S LRT line, I assumed by looking at the maps that the planned road would not accommodate a line. In speaking with well connected members of the Nation, there is apparently enough room for a N-S LRT line in the centre of the road as planned (even in the Ultimate stage) and that the Nation may be taking station location into account in the long-term master planning for their commercial areas. I assume this would take the form of a spur from the WLRT down Sarcee Trail, and while incredibly long-term (and potentially never going to happen) I'm glad that it is at least being considered and hopefully planned around.

The street layout does actually look way better than most newer suburbs, and 162nd does have room for an LRT. I'm not sure I'm confident that the vision will ever happen though.

I don't know why we would plan for LRT down Stoney, LRT needs to go through the heart of communities, not be isolated on the edge of the city. You want a good amount of the population to be able to walk to the station - stations on Stoney would involve mandatory driving.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by speedog

Belvedere, Keystone Hills and Seton would all be area's that would be cut off from the city per lineman's post above as all lie outside of the ring road

Yet all have a planned LRT that directly accesses the downtown and the rest of the transit network.

[Socguy]

Originally Posted by fusili

...Providence- Isolated beyond belief.

Meh. Once the SWRR is built, it will be as well connected as any other far-flung area of the city.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Socguy

Meh. Once the SWRR is built, it will be as well connected as any other far-flung area of the city.

Connected, as in connected to transit. This will be like Crestmont or ValleyRidge, which, IMO should never have been built. Absolutely isolated and terribly inefficient for transit.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by pulkit10

Well, it is you see. I mean if it was a proper plan, we'd already have three lanes there and they wouldn't wait until the place starts to clog up to go and paint new lines on the road.

Of course there is plenty of room down there. If only they got around to using it.

Like Acey said, it was planned properly. The traffic volumes for NE Stoney weren't anywhere close to needing 3 lanes in each direction on opening day, and it wasn't guaranteed at the time that the SE would be moving ahead immediately. The SE would push the need for 3 lanes, but that's why the subgrade is ready to have the pavement structure added to it with no additional work on the road. Signage will need to be updated but that's also accounted for on the sign structures.

[yyc_engineer]

I sincerely hope the West and SW Ring Road doesn't get postponed as we head into $50 oil. This $6B - $7B budget shortfall is not sounding promising.

We desperately need this road, my drive in would have been cut by at least 1/2 today, and most other days, if WCRR was up and running. The lost productivity of sitting in traffic 1+ hour every morning X 10's of 1000's of Calgarians every day is mind boggling

[fusili]

Originally Posted by yyc_engineer

I sincerely hope the West and SW Ring Road doesn't get postponed as we head into $50 oil. This $6B - $7B budget shortfall is not sounding promising.

We desperately need this road, my drive in would have been cut by at least 1/2 today, and most other days, if WCRR was up and running. The lost productivity of sitting in traffic 1+ hour every morning X 10's of 1000's of Calgarians every day is mind boggling

I hope this budget does postpone, and ultimately cause the SWRR to be mothballed. The west leg, sure, I see a real need for that road in terms of improving freight access from Glenmore to the #1 highway, but the SWRR is nothing but a boondoggle waiting to happen.

[DoubleK]

Originally Posted by fusili

I hope this budget does postpone, and ultimately cause the SWRR to be mothballed. The west leg, sure, I see a real need for that road in terms of improving freight access from Glenmore to the #1 highway, but the SWRR is nothing but a boondoggle waiting to happen.

I hope you are wrong. The SW quadrant needs this.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by fusili

I hope this budget does postpone, and ultimately cause the SWRR to be mothballed. The west leg, sure, I see a real need for that road in terms of improving freight access from Glenmore to the #1 highway, but the SWRR is nothing but a boondoggle waiting to happen.

I quite agree with this, and have been scratching my head as to why the portion North of Glenmore has been held hostage along with the SW corner.

No doubt it would help some people, but the relative expense and opportunity cost is too massive.

That being said, as an agreement is in place, I don't think there is much choice.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

I hope you are wrong. The SW quadrant needs this.

I don't doubt that. But is it a $5 billion need? The SE needs the Greenline, as does the north central. Glenmore needs to be free-flow from Stoney all the way to the highway 1. The Glenmore/Deerfoot interchange needs to be upgraded. When you have a city with dozens of transportation needs, you don't blow the entire budget on a single overbuilt project.

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by fusili

I don't doubt that. But is it a $5 billion need? The SE needs the Greenline, as does the north central. Glenmore needs to be free-flow from Stoney all the way to the highway 1. The Glenmore/Deerfoot interchange needs to be upgraded. When you have a city with dozens of transportation needs, you don't blow the entire budget on a single overbuilt project.

Here the devil's advocate on you for this. I know this won't be a popular opinion around here but I believe it represents a lot of people's thoughts on it. $5 billion is a big number (and I'm personally still skeptical it will come that total). Everyone will say that they believe they know the best way to spend this money. Paid over 30 years like other P3 projects, I still think it's a good investment for the SW.

If we're looking at congestion in Calgary and the solutions to improve it, the Glenmore causeway is a bottleneck for the SW more than any other project currently being looked at in the City, and there isn't a simple solution to fix it. The SW Ring Road is a desperately needed part of the road network in the area and would greatly improve inter-city travel times in the quadrant.

If you don't believe that's a big enough source of traffic, then you're full of it. The daily gridlock of that road in the morning and afternoon daily (including weekends!) is certainly not something that can be fixed with more lanes. There needs to be more ways to get around the area. Traffic will use the more efficient route if it exists.

Most of the alternatives being proposed abandon the SW to fulfill transit desires in other quadrants of the City using this provincial/federal money. The province has a mandate to complete the ring roads in Edmonton and Calgary, and it would be sad to have it mostly finished and become the next Circle Drive (which wasn't a circle until just recently).

Is there a north central bottleneck with no alternatives? Will the SE never proceed without this money being diverted? No. Transit is good to have, but halting progress on the most widely use mode of transportation and making a bottleneck even worse over the long term is not the solution because people are being scared by a larger than expected number. We can't expect a complete 180 in the general population in how they move around a City of this size, and this is coming from someone who would prefer to take Transit more than drive. I just don't see any solution being presented that helps make getting from around COP down to Glenmore/Macleod or destinations further South any better, and it's frustrating.

I moved from Signal Hill to Canyon Meadows years ago solely to remove Glenmore from my commute, and I'm very glad for it! I still travel 14th/Glenmore/Sarcee regularly though, and it still sucks. There has to be more options if one accident can paralyze the entire area.

[MalcolmTucker]

The section is going to be value engineered like crazy. Won't be anywhere near to $5 billion (and remember, that includes future maintenance costs as well)

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

Here the devil's advocate on you for this. I know this won't be a popular opinion around here but I believe it represents a lot of people's thoughts on it. $5 billion is a big number (and I'm personally still skeptical it will come that total). Everyone will say that they believe they know the best way to spend this money. Paid over 30 years like other P3 projects, I still think it's a good investment for the SW.

If we're looking at congestion in Calgary and the solutions to improve it, the Glenmore causeway is a bottleneck for the SW more than any other project currently being looked at in the City, and there isn't a simple solution to fix it. The SW Ring Road is a desperately needed part of the road network in the area and would greatly improve inter-city travel times in the quadrant.

If you don't believe that's a big enough source of traffic, then you're full of it. The daily gridlock of that road in the morning and afternoon daily (including weekends!) is certainly not something that can be fixed with more lanes. There needs to be more ways to get around the area. Traffic will use the more efficient route if it exists.

Most of the alternatives being proposed abandon the SW to fulfill transit desires in other quadrants of the City using this provincial/federal money. The province has a mandate to complete the ring roads in Edmonton and Calgary, and it would be sad to have it mostly finished and become the next Circle Drive (which wasn't a circle until just recently).

Is there a north central bottleneck with no alternatives? Will the SE never proceed without this money being diverted? No. Transit is good to have, but halting progress on the most widely use mode of transportation and making a bottleneck even worse over the long term is not the solution because people are being scared by a larger than expected number. We can't expect a complete 180 in the general population in how they move around a City of this size, and this is coming from someone who would prefer to take Transit more than drive. I just don't see any solution being presented that helps make getting from around COP down to Glenmore/Macleod or destinations further South any better, and it's frustrating.

I moved from Signal Hill to Canyon Meadows years ago solely to remove Glenmore from my commute, and I'm very glad for it! I still travel 14th/Glenmore/Sarcee regularly though, and it still sucks. There has to be more options if one accident can paralyze the entire area.

Why wouldn't we fund a proposal for the SW separated BRT down 14th Street and across the causeway like Route Ahead proposes? Throw in a couple more crosstown routes and a 162nd Ave one for the Providence area when that is built out. Gives you significant more network capacity, frees up road space for drivers/truckers who remain and offers network resiliency where no accident/weather could shut down capacity as it happens now.

Estimated at $40 million by Route Ahead on Page 133. here

Throw in a MRU to Quarry Park leg (another ~$40 million) too for crosstown travelers. Major capacity and resiliency improvements E-W as well.

Let's round up and throw in another $100 million for SW transit improvements to give another dedicated transit route or two in the area, just to be safe. Say $200 million all in.

Will it help the COP to Okotoks commuters? not really. Good thing there aren't nearly enough commuters doing that route to warrant much expense. The extra road capacity freed up by new transit commuters can be used by them. And it cost far less that $5 Billion.

[yyc_engineer]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

If we're looking at congestion in Calgary and the solutions to improve it, the Glenmore causeway is a bottleneck for the SW more than any other project currently being looked at in the City, and there isn't a simple solution to fix it. The SW Ring Road is a desperately needed part of the road network in the area and would greatly improve inter-city travel times in the quadrant.

+1, actually more like +1,195,194.

People who drive this are so stupid! There is one solution, driver education. It is so simple and would make a huge difference:

(1) if you are continuing straight on EB Glenmore coming from Signal Hill area, stay in the furthest LEFT lane. Do not change lanes over the causeway until past 14 St. DO NOT CHANGE LANES!!

(2) if you are coming from the East and want to go SB on 14th St, stay in the RIGHT Glenmore lane and change lanes over the causeway to merge onto 14 St. Change Lanes ONCE!!

(3) if you are coming from Crowchild and want to continue East on Glenmore, stay in the LEFT lane over the flyover and merge into the Right Hand Glenmore lane. Change Lanes ONCE!!

and finally,

(4) if you are coming from Crowchild and want to do SB on 14 St, stay in the RIGHT Lane from the flyover until 14 St. DO NOT CHANGE LANES!!

Nobody should be merging across more than 1 lane, yet the number of people who insist on traversing the entire width of the causeway during rush hour out of pure stupidity boggles my mind!

If the 78,000 people driving this everyday would follow these four simple steps, it would save at least 5 minutes for each person, and over millions of trips per year, even at minimum wage of $9.20/hour, that would be $21,827,000 of increased productivity and life happiness!!! Not to mention all the accidents that happen here. (I know I'm exaggerating)

The merge from SB Dfoot to EB Glenmore with EB Glenmore to NB Deerfoot is IMO the saddest of all traffic setups, oh that and no direct ramp NB Deerfoot to WB Glenmore!!

Sorry for the rant, it just grinds my gears how poorly people drive this stretch of road during a.m. rush hour, if only everyone had to take a mandatory Traffic/Transportation Engineering class to get their drivers licence..

[fusili]

[QUOTE=yyc_engineer;6865499]+1, actually more like +1,195,194.

People who drive this are so stupid! There is one solution, driver education.QUOTE]

We have been educating drivers for more than half a decade. It's not working. Driving is fundamentally contradictory to human psychology and perception. Read the book "Traffic" by Tom Vanderbilt- it is a great look at how people's brains are fundamentally ill-prepared to drive: depth perception, perception of movement, multi-tasking, reaction times, the need to read body language and facial expressions to understand intent are all contradictory to how we need to drive.