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  #2041  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2020, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Pretty sure your OP was two turns with an unaltered Cordova. If we're talking about total turns now, that's five - two from Powell to Pender, one onto Granville, two in and out of the hub WB, or two in and out onto Cordova EB. But now we're splitting hairs.

Do you mean closing Water? Powell's staying as-is.
Again, don't mistake any of the bus routes for high-capacity like a BRT; they're all quiet feeder routes that converge and create the illusion of capacity. Bus lanes are almost entirely unnecessary even by the time the streetcar opens.

What we could do is just reclaim the EB curb lane of Granville-Richards, add bus shelters, and make that a limited interchange for the 4/7 and the N-S routes; it already is, more or less, but this makes it official. Solves your confusion problem and doesn't depend on CP saying yes.

Speaking of the streetcar, there's not a lot of options for it past Water. You'd have to either make Cordova two-way and run the trains in mixed traffic in the centre or curbs (bad idea), or dedicate the WB lanes to the ROW; the latter might work if it terminates at WF for good, but that means the 4 and 7 are stuck on the current route. Probably not going to make it to Coal Harbour either way.
Yeah, that's kind of why these ideas should be bounced around like this, to improve them.

Water/Powell. Going past Quebec/Main would make sense if the DTES problem could be solved, and it would be easier to put in bus lanes past Quebec anyways to save the hassle of putting them in later and facing more public opposition.

Yeah, but all those bus routes converging actually probably means you need contagious bus lanes to avoid causing more congestion on the nearby roads. Especially a problem since there's no space for bus bulbs.

Also, if you want to get Arbutus to DT (required if it's even to play a minor role in relieving the Canada) you need to get across the Granville Bridge. It will go DT, and at that point (since you would need to extend the bus lanes to the Bridge) you may as well get it to connect to the rest of the streetcar routes and Hastings at Waterfront for all the hassle.



I agree you should have that as well. But note that you still need to get to Waterfront to access the Hastings/West End/NS once that goes through at least.


From the Central Waterfront Hub Framework:
https://guidelines.vancouver.ca/C031.pdf
Quote:
This report presents a planning Framework for the Central Waterfront Hub that describes how this key area of Vancouver, where multiple transportation modes converge, could develop into a world-class transportation interchange and dynamic extension of the downtown waterfront.
Adding in a bus terminal makes perfect sense within the context of the plan's intention. Actually that's probably part of the reason it hasn't been done yet may be because of this- it's not a RE development plan. It's not really needed until at least Hastings/NS Skytrain goes through.


There are off-peak parking lanes on Cordova/Waterfront past Howe, and Cordova can be widened 1 lane between Howe and Granville.

The pinch point between Water and 555 W Cordova is a big problem though. Even the city wants to widen the sidewalks there, but there's not many options.

Is it feasible to move the landing south or demo part of SFU Harbour Center?
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  #2042  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2020, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by fredinno View Post
Water/Powell. Going past Quebec/Main would make sense if the DTES problem could be solved, and it would be easier to put in bus lanes past Quebec anyways to save the hassle of putting them in later and facing more public opposition.

Yeah, but all those bus routes converging actually probably means you need contiguous bus lanes to avoid causing more congestion on the nearby roads. Especially a problem since there's no space for bus bulbs.

Also, if you want to get Arbutus to DT (required if it's even to play a minor role in relieving the Canada) you need to get across the Granville Bridge. It will go DT, and at that point (since you would need to extend the bus lanes to the Bridge) you may as well get it to connect to the rest of the streetcar routes and Hastings at Waterfront for all the hassle.



I agree you should have that as well. But note that you still need to get to Waterfront to access the Hastings/West End/NS once that goes through at least.


From the Central Waterfront Hub Framework:
https://guidelines.vancouver.ca/C031.pdf

Adding in a bus terminal makes perfect sense within the context of the plan's intention. Actually that's probably part of the reason it hasn't been done yet may be because of this- it's not a RE development plan. It's not really needed until at least Hastings/NS Skytrain goes through.


There are off-peak parking lanes on Cordova/Waterfront past Howe, and Cordova can be widened 1 lane between Howe and Granville.

The pinch point between Water and 555 W Cordova is a big problem though. Even the city wants to widen the sidewalks there, but there's not many options.

Is it feasible to move the landing south or demo part of SFU Harbour Center?
Local routes on those three streets are already scheduled for every five minutes peak, and are unlikely to get any faster. Congestion is already here... and it's pretty manageable.

A train on Granville Bridge is probably a non-starter. Too much interference with foot/bike/bus/car traffic, especially after all the Connector stuff gets built out. You could try a SkyTrain branch down Burrard to Arbutus Station, like others have.

Waterfront's pretty well-connected and easy to access the way it is. Just walk across Cordova to the big red brick building - five years from now, it'll be the one with the funky glass building on top. Can't miss it. Still not sure how an interchange adds anything to that.

The problem with the CBD part of Cordova isn't the width, it's all the underground ramps: can't remove two lanes for a ROW without creating additional bottlenecks all over the place. In that scenario, best to keep it one-way.
And Harbour Centre's here to stay, so that's a no-go as well. Unless you want to leave the streetcar terminus on Water, I'm not seeing any other good choices save the above two.
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  #2043  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2020, 7:29 PM
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  #2044  
Old Posted Yesterday, 8:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Local routes on those three streets are already scheduled for every five minutes peak, and are unlikely to get any faster. Congestion is already here... and it's pretty manageable.

A train on Granville Bridge is probably a non-starter. Too much interference with foot/bike/bus/car traffic, especially after all the Connector stuff gets built out. You could try a SkyTrain branch down Burrard to Arbutus Station, like others have.

Waterfront's pretty well-connected and easy to access the way it is. Just walk across Cordova to the big red brick building - five years from now, it'll be the one with the funky glass building on top. Can't miss it. Still not sure how an interchange adds anything to that.

The problem with the CBD part of Cordova isn't the width, it's all the underground ramps: can't remove two lanes for a ROW without creating additional bottlenecks all over the place. In that scenario, best to keep it one-way.
And Harbour Centre's here to stay, so that's a no-go as well. Unless you want to leave the streetcar terminus on Water, I'm not seeing any other good choices save the above two.
Bus Service on those routes will inevitably increase due to densification on corridors outside Skytrain- 5-6 stories across Vancouver off and on the arterials could become the norm by 2060- and the Skytrain network alone can't handle that sort of traffic. Which I'm pretty sure is what both you and I want to see.

Burrard is bad because going on the Bridge would require cantilevering the cycling pathways on the sides, already rejected due to the effects on the heritage structure, or going under the bridge-either resulting in a draw bridge or a tunnel underneath DT (too expensive, most likely). Assuming that's even possible due to the Squamish Reserve Redevelopments- a 1-track spur to the area may be as good as we get here due to space limitations. Actually, that'd be as much I'd bet we'd get- which is about the size of the parking lanes on Pennyfarthing.

Rebuilding Granville Bridge (since reducing Granville to 4 lanes was considered unacceptable) to 12 lanes, or moving its ped/cycling facilities to a new, nearby bridge are probably the only options here.

And going from Waterfront back to the bus stops?

Yep. Which is why you go around it by going behind Waterfront to avoid the queuing area into the ramp.

I said to demo part of Harbour Center. Just enough to move it 9m or so southwards, which is likely about the size of an office and a hallway. Even if you end on Water Street, that area is a problem because of ped traffic going from Water to Waterfront.
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  #2045  
Old Posted Today, 4:01 AM
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Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
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Originally Posted by fredinno View Post
Bus Service on those routes will inevitably increase due to densification on corridors outside Skytrain- 5-6 stories across Vancouver off and on the arterials could become the norm by 2060- and the Skytrain network alone can't handle that sort of traffic. Which I'm pretty sure is what both you and I want to see.

Burrard is bad because going on the Bridge would require cantilevering the cycling pathways on the sides, already rejected due to the effects on the heritage structure, or going under the bridge-either resulting in a draw bridge or a tunnel underneath DT (too expensive, most likely). Assuming that's even possible due to the Squamish Reserve Redevelopments- a 1-track spur to the area may be as good as we get here due to space limitations. Actually, that'd be as much I'd bet we'd get- which is about the size of the parking lanes on Pennyfarthing.

Rebuilding Granville Bridge (since reducing Granville to 4 lanes was considered unacceptable) to 12 lanes, or moving its ped/cycling facilities to a new, nearby bridge are probably the only options here.

And going from Waterfront back to the bus stops?

Yep. Which is why you go around it by going behind Waterfront to avoid the queuing area into the ramp.

I said to demo part of Harbour Center. Just enough to move it 9m or so southwards, which is likely about the size of an office and a hallway. Even if you end on Water Street, that area is a problem because of ped traffic going from Water to Waterfront.
Extra capacity to address growth would likely come in the form of artics. Once again, we're talking every five minutes for downtown routes at rush hour, which is more or less "full throttle" frequency for local service; any more introduces bunch-ups as the lines converge (maybe even in spite of bus lanes), and would also mean the hiring of 25-66% more drivers, which is definitely out of the question for the next twenty years.

Definitely not proposing anything besides underground options for Burrard-Arbutus. Expensive, sure, but potentially well worth the money.

... Just walk out of the station and across the street? There's only one way out right now. You'd be doing it anyway with the bus nexus (I'll just call it that to stop confusing myself), except in the opposite direction.

Putting a two-way streetcar behind would seem to be an "anti-nexus" argument: buses and trams don't mix very well. And to get back out, you need to keep going along Canada Place in mixed traffic, or close it off and shift everybody onto Cordova instead.

Worst comes to worst, the City may shift the WB lane south and add the Landing corner to the sidewalk; as it is, it's a lot wider than Google Maps makes it out to be. I seriously doubt that any part of Harbour Centre is going anywhere, streetcar or not.
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  #2046  
Old Posted Today, 8:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut View Post
Extra capacity to address growth would likely come in the form of artics. Once again, we're talking every five minutes for downtown routes at rush hour, which is more or less "full throttle" frequency for local service; any more introduces bunch-ups as the lines converge (maybe even in spite of bus lanes), and would also mean the hiring of 25-66% more drivers, which is definitely out of the question for the next twenty years.

Definitely not proposing anything besides underground options for Burrard-Arbutus. Expensive, sure, but potentially well worth the money.

... Just walk out of the station and across the street? There's only one way out right now. You'd be doing it anyway with the bus nexus (I'll just call it that to stop confusing myself), except in the opposite direction.

Putting a two-way streetcar behind would seem to be an "anti-nexus" argument: buses and trams don't mix very well. And to get back out, you need to keep going along Canada Place in mixed traffic, or close it off and shift everybody onto Cordova instead.

Worst comes to worst, the City may shift the WB lane south and add the Landing corner to the sidewalk; as it is, it's a lot wider than Google Maps makes it out to be. I seriously doubt that any part of Harbour Centre is going anywhere, streetcar or not.
Routes like the 7 and even the 16 don't go at that sort of frequency. Actually, I think only the 10 goes that frequent on Granville Mall, and it doesn't turn to the east. You will still want bus lanes coming from the east, and those buses will end up congesting the surrounding streets more w/o priority/dedicated space. Frequency>Capacity when you can achieve it as well. So you want both transit malls coming from the east and south to max/near max capacity at rush hour. Just adding the Water Street Transit Mall would increase congestion in the CBD section most likely.


You can also add bus bays to Granville Mall (and Water Street) if necessary for alleviated congestion. The mall is actually pretty wide for most of its width- if we use optical guided bus technologies (or we get automated buses), we can get widen the mall by 4m by stealing some land from the wide sidewalks for bus bays/express lanes- if not, you'd have to steal 5m. Though considering the amount of pedestrian traffic, not sure if that's a good idea. But it is an option.

The marginal cost of a large bus nexus added to the Waterfront Hub Plan, using the cost of the UBC Bus Exchange as an analogue, would be $22M. The rest of the Hub would cost, at minimum (since it assumes the concourse is a shell-LOL) would be $155M, adjusted for inflation to 2019$. Likely the ultimate actual cost would be more like $250M. Even with the former #, it's 14% of the total cost. May as well. Even if it’s not needed for the next 20-30 years- you’re not going to get a second chance at building this.

Hey, you brought up wayfinding! I didn't think it was THAT big a deal.

I have been vocal about wanting the streetcar to be BRT, and the Arbutus as Tram-Train. You likely still want bus/streetcar lanes on the Granville Bridge eventually though.

I think I want a citation for trams and buses not mixing well. Maybe, but I can’t find anything on the topic.

Quote:
the City may shift the WB lane south
...? How? Reduce the road to 3 lanes?

Last edited by fredinno; Today at 9:55 AM.
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