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  #421  
Old Posted May 11, 2009, 8:55 PM
markbarbera markbarbera is offline
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Mainly more corporate box seats. Think there's 20 in there. These days oyu need many more - think they want 60-70. Copps is designed to have an extra tier popped on top for more seating/boxes, and that's what they plan on doing for $150 mil. But that won't be until the end of the 2009/10 season. Intermediate work - new seats, new scoreboard, new concessions is supposed to be done this summer (if the NHL deal follows through), which has a price tag of around $20 mil.
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  #422  
Old Posted May 11, 2009, 9:17 PM
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Plus new retail and concession space once you raise the roof.
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  #423  
Old Posted May 11, 2009, 11:13 PM
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okay big whoop... $150 is not anywhere a deal breaker.

Concession Stands -- raise revenue, an investment more then a cost
Corporate Suites -- everyone knows that Copps needs that, again another revenue stream, investment not an expense

So we have for $150 million:
1. new scoreboard (fair enough, it would probably have more ad space anyway, and probably something that needs to be updated every 5-10 years anyway to incorporate new technology)
2. seat coverings (maintenance anyway, whether a NHL team was there or not)
3. corp suites/boxes (investment makes more money)
4. more retail/food & beverage (investment, makes more money)

All these things DO NOT ADD UP to an obsolete arena.

See what I'm saying? The country and NHL think Copps is crap and needs to be torn down. This is BS. Not even anywhere near the truth. Even our own media has lead us to believe that bc it needs $150 million it is garbage.

effme
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  #424  
Old Posted May 11, 2009, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by realcity View Post
okay big whoop... $150 is not anywhere a deal breaker.

Concession Stands -- raise revenue, an investment more then a cost
Corporate Suites -- everyone knows that Copps needs that, again another revenue stream, investment not an expense

So we have for $150 million:
1. new scoreboard (fair enough, it would probably have more ad space anyway, and probably something that needs to be updated every 5-10 years anyway to incorporate new technology)
2. seat coverings (maintenance anyway, whether a NHL team was there or not)
3. corp suites/boxes (investment makes more money)
4. more retail/food & beverage (investment, makes more money)

All these things DO NOT ADD UP to an obsolete arena.

See what I'm saying? The country and NHL think Copps is crap and needs to be torn down. This is BS. Not even anywhere near the truth. Even our own media has lead us to believe that bc it needs $150 million it is garbage.

effme
I actually really like the look of Copps from the outside, but there is something about the concourse that is just too dark and empty-feeling, even when it is packed. The Air Canada Centre somehow has much more of a bright, event-type feel to it and I am not sure if that is something that Copps could replicate even with the renovation.

Does anyone else know what I am talking about?
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  #425  
Old Posted May 11, 2009, 11:57 PM
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Slightly, but I've only been there a few times. I agree though, it was somewhat cavernous.
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  #426  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by markbarbera View Post
Mainly more corporate box seats. Think there's 20 in there.
The 20 that exist, are they the ones that are in between the upper and lower level seating?

It's fine to add a lot of boxes to the top teir of the arena, but they really need more boxes down lower for a great view. Can they add more anywhere lower? (I don't see how, but I thought I'd ask). Not that we should be comparing it to something as modern and new as the ACC, but they have around 65 lower level suites (in the 200 level). I sat in these boxes and the ones in the gondola for Leafs games, and I have to admit - they're really nice.

The interior isn't dingy or anything, it just looks a little too plain (aside from the coloured seats) and maybe a little on the cold side. I don't know if that can be improved upon. The exterior I really hate - it looks like they just threw on large vinyl siding around it and gives it a cheap feel. That needs to be addressed badly.

I have to wonder if 150 million is better spent on a new arena - even if it costs 100 million more. I guess it depends on the results of the renovation. Will the 150 million simply add more seats and boxes, or will it also give it a warm modern look and feel rivaling other newer arenas?

I feel like when I'm discussing about things like this, I'm putting the cart before the horse. I honestly don't think the judge's decision will favor Moyes/JB resulting in more disappointment for this city with regards to an NHL team. I really really really hope I'm wrong.
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  #427  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 1:33 AM
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I honestly don't think the judge's decision will favor Moyes/JB resulting in more disappointment for this city with regards to an NHL team. I really really really hope I'm wrong.
If not Phoenix, then one of the other teams.

The NHL can't support multiple teams that are "on the ropes". Richer teams like MSLE won't put all their profits into supporting failing teams. And I can't see any sensible businessman buying a failing team like Phoenix, and keeping it in Phoenix, or Tampa, or Atlanta, etc......

I know that Buffalo was saved and is apparently faring okay now, but that was a different time, not today.

The NHL is still acting like it's a strong league when the reality is anything but strong. They have way too many teams who are on life support, and soon changes will be imposed on the NHL by the economy. If not this time, then sometime soon.
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  #428  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 2:42 AM
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The NHL is still acting like it's a strong league when the reality is anything but strong. They have way too many teams who are on life support, and soon changes will be imposed on the NHL by the economy. If not this time, then sometime soon.
Everything you say makes perfect sense and was very similar to what I've been saying for the last couple years... but this is the NHL. Just when you think they couldn't be more stupid, they raise the bar higher (or is it lower?).

We know MLSE has a hand in this, and I would love to see a backlash from a good number of people in Ontario by simply spending money elsewhere.

One thing I always thought, if Balsilie wants to play hardball with MLSE to try to get them to stop their opposition (or wave their territorial compensation) - he can always threaten to build an arena in downtown TO... not too far from the ACC.

No NHL team obviously, but he can take away a good deal of events from the ACC. With a much more flexible booking schedule (no NHL or NBA getting in the way) and by undercutting the ACC on price - it could really affect MLSE's bottom line. Obviously it isn't the best business investment, but he could minimize losses as much as possible - he has deep pockets anyways. Maybe house an OHL team as well. Also, the arena would be one less reason why Toronto can't have another NHL team in the future - and that has to worry MLSE a little.
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  #429  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 3:55 AM
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BCTed.... I totally agree. the concourse level is a bit too soviet. The concreteness is imposing.

Getting to your seats is more welcoming.... in a hockey arena sense. If it's filled with people it's not too bad. But in traditional Hamilton style.... it doesn't have a friendly lighting and embellishments. It could totally be improved. But really just cosmetics. This was after all a City built arena.
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Last edited by realcity; May 12, 2009 at 3:14 PM.
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  #430  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 11:09 AM
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Do NHL's governors have soft spot for Steel City?

May 12, 2009
Steve Milton
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/564457

From pariah to messiah?

It has become evident that Copps Coliseum is widely perceived as a rescue point for financially struggling NHL franchises.

And even the National Hockey League may be leaning that way, too, albeit behind closed doors.

In recent weeks, some governors, and even one league executive, have told The Spectator with certainty that southern Ontario should get another team within a few years, if not sooner. And without prompting, they mention that the only arena in the area seating 17,000-plus is in Hamilton.

The NHL is taking a strong, and angry, stand against Phoenix Coyotes' owner Jerry Moyes filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy and Jim Balsillie agreeing to purchase the team if it can be moved to Hamilton.

The NHL must take this public stand in order to prevent what many sports executives regard as the chaos that would accompany any franchise being allowed to move, cart blanche, without league approval. And they want to give Phoenix a try with another owner.

However, it's entirely possible and indeed quite likely that their two-year toe-to-toe with the resolute Balsillie, combined with the current economic crisis, have softened the attitude of not just a few governors but the league itself. Not necessarily toward the Marquis de BlackBerry and his determined methods to force his way into their lodge, but toward Hamilton as a locale.

As recently as two years ago, just before Balsillie agreed to buy the Nashville Predators in the hopes of moving them to Copps Coliseum, no one would discuss in any serious manner the possibility of another team in the Maple Leafs' generally-acknowledged territory.

Within six months, Balsillie's overt actions -- primarily the ticket drive in Hamilton -- had stimulated a massive public debate about whether another team could survive in the Toronto area. And over the ensuing few months, that debate elevated into not "if" a second team could come to the GTA but "where." This shift of emphasis was true not only in the public forum but within the upper reaches of the NHL itself.

Some team executives have told The Spec over recent months that for the past two years, commissioner Gary Bettman has suggested to his owners the need for another team in Canada.

In public, and duly noted by The Spec, Bettman would only mention Winnipeg, never Hamilton unless pressed by media questioners. It's interesting to note, though, that you rarely hear him mention Winnipeg anymore.

And at the all-star game in Montreal in January, Bettman -- the man who has always steadfastly refused to deal with "hypothetical situations" -- talked at length about the possibility of a second team in the southern Ontario area: that the league would investigate it; that it would require a huge investment and that no relocation or expansion to this area would take place without intense market study and due diligence. This was a discussion, don't forget, about a marketplace which is coveted and heavily mined by a current league member. It was a complete and utter departure for the league to engage in such discussions.

What has developed is a sense of inevitability that this market should have and eventually will get a second team. But the NHL, understandably, wants to control that possibility. And from all angles. If the bankruptcy court rules that Jerry Moyes does have the right to Chapter 11 his team, that he can legally sell it to Balsillie, and that Balsillie can move it to Hamilton, then the NHL does not have control of how such a move would affect the league and its members. And it does not have control over which team would come to Hamilton.

An existing arena like Copps already poses a competitive threat in non-hockey revenue to the Air Canada Centre, home of the Leafs. A new arena in the area would only add another major competitor for concerts, conventions and one-off sporting events such as figure skating championships and the Brier.

Additionally, it has been reported in The Spec that Balsillie's group would offer Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd. the contract to manage Copps, the Convention Centre, and Hamilton Place. That would demonstrably help, not hurt, the Leafs' bottom line.

The NHL knows all of this. And through various corporate nudges and tics, an outsider gets the percolating feeling that the league is priming to find a way to accommodate a team here, because it will help with the overall NHL bottom line in horrific economic times.

Other financially-threatened league owners began contacting Balsillie after his failed attempt to purchase Nashville, and that's how the Coyotes' deal sprang to life.

And in the wake of what Balsillie has done, other investors have become emboldened to seek a franchise for the GTA. There have been so many of them, at a time when few, if any, real buyers are surfacing for teams anywhere else in North America, that the league has realized a bidding war is possible for a team to come here. (Balsillie realizes this too, and notes that the Coyotes' legal filings call for an open auction of the team.)

Balsillie is the one who has created this near-miraculous atmosphere and is the only one who has ever said, and probably will ever say, that he'd commit the money -- $160 million by his estimate -- to turn Copps Coliseum into a 21st century NHL rink.

Owners around the league had pretty well let their anger toward Balsillie over the Hamilton ticket-sale campaign drain away and had begun to ask why a guy with this kind of money, hockey love and upscale product image was not in the league.

Last week's bankruptcy and proposed sale has re-ignited much of that anger and concern. It may settle down in time, but the irony is that for now, Balsillie has created a situation where the NHL is much closer to accepting Hamilton than they are to accepting him.
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  #431  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 11:43 AM
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Court orders NHL to produce Reinsdorf documents
Posted: May 12, 2009, 1:37 AM by Sarah Millar
Hockey, NHL

The NHL must provide an Arizona bankruptcy court with documents detailing a possible sale of the Phoenix Coyotes to Chicago Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf, according to the Phoenix Business Journal.

The court is in the process of deciding if Coyotes owner Jerry Moyes had the authority to put the team in Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection last week. The NHL believes Moyes relinquished control of the team when the league loaned him money, while Moyes countered he only surrendered some ownership voting rights and filing for bankruptcy was not among them.

Canadian billionaire Jim Balsillie has made a bid for the franchise and wants to move it to southern Ontario.

Moyes’ attorneys filed a motion asking the NHL to turn over the documents and the court agreed. The NHL must produce the documents by Tuesday morning.

According to reports, Reinsdorf has been in discussions with the league and the city of Glendale, Ariz., about purchasing the struggling team.

In addition to the Bulls, Reinsdorf also owns the Chicago White Sox. He refused to comment on his interest in the Coyotes when the Chicago Tribune asked through a spokesman on the weekend.

The NHL and Moyes will make separate submissions to the court over the next week. Both sides will be in court together May 19.

— Canwest News Service
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  #432  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 1:03 PM
FairHamilton FairHamilton is offline
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One thing I always thought, if Balsilie wants to play hardball with MLSE to try to get them to stop their opposition (or wave their territorial compensation) - he can always threaten to build an arena in downtown TO... not too far from the ACC.
I bet you he could buy Maple Leaf Gardens from Loblaws. They haven't been able to get their idea of a grocery store going there in a number of years.

The place is already gutted and ready for updating
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  #433  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 2:07 PM
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The dominoes are starting to fall:

Quote:
Hockey's bonfire of the bankruptcies
Coyotes win court ruling over prospective sale; Could Dallas Stars be next up for Chapter 11?
May 12, 2009
Record news services
Web edition

While the Phoenix Coyotes turned up the heat on the NHL yesterday, the owner of the Dallas Stars appears to be laying enough kindling and timber to start another bankruptcy bonfire.

The Coyotes won a court ruling that will force the NHL to tell all it knows about White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf's mysterious bid to purchase the Coyotes to a Phoenix bankruptcy court judge.

The NHL must produce all documents related to Reinsdorf's bid today, ruled judge Redfield Baum.

The league has said it was close to announcing Reinsdorf as a white knight who would keep the team in Glendale, Ariz., when Jerry Moyes thrust the Coyotes into bankruptcy. The Moyes camp wants to see how good the offer was.

"The purpose of the production is to examine the content of those discussions and the potential offer outstanding by Mr. Reinsdorf related to these purported interests," read the motion filed by Moyes lawyer Thomas Salerno.

Canadian billionaire Jim Balsillie has made a $212.5 million (all figures U.S.) offer to purchase the Coyotes and move them to Hamilton as part of the franchise's bankruptcy proceedings that are being challenged by the NHL.

But Phoenix is only one of the many franchises in trouble during the recession.

Tom Hicks, who owns the Dallas Stars and baseball's Texas Rangers, defaulted a month ago on $525 million in loans tied to the teams, starting the clock ticking in a showdown with lenders that could see the Stars end up in bankruptcy proceedings in October.

At the time, Hicks said he was trying to work out a new deal with his creditors, and perhaps bring in new investors, but has been mum on the situation since. Dallas Stars president Jeff Cogen referred calls to a public relations firm, which said there was "nothing" to report.

NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly did not respond to an email. A group of 40 financial institutions and other investors hold the debt in Hicks Sports Group, which owns the two teams. It would take 180 days for lenders to foreclose on defaulted loans, according the standard deals involving the NHL.

That gives Hicks another five months to find alternate financing, but lenders are tight with their money these days, and those who follow sports financing closely worry it's inevitable that the Stars will follow the Coyotes into bankruptcy.

"He's heading in the same direction," said a broker specializing in sports financing, who didn't want his name used because of his dealings with the NHL.

"It could be the second team in Chapter 11," said Andrew Zimbalist, an economics professor at Smith College, who specializes in sports business. "When Hicks put himself in that circumstance, he's creating a lot of difficulty for himself. He's going to squirm a little bit. Whatever leverage he had, he loses some of it.

"You go to your creditors and try to re-organize your loans," added Zimbalist. "(If) they say no deal, you can declare bankruptcy or sell the franchise or go to other banks and borrow more money."

Hicks also co-owns Liverpool, a soccer team in England's Premier League, another franchise looking for new ownership. His holdings in Liverpool – shared with Montreal Canadiens owner George Gillett –are outside Hicks Sports Group.

None involved believe the Stars are in danger of moving. Dallas is believed to be a strong market with the team able to turn a profit, especially if it makes the playoffs.

It's been a bad year for bankruptcies and the NHL. William (Boots) Del Biaggio faces jail time after having been found guilty of fraud for the way he helped finance his minority purchase of the Nashville Predators.

Meanwhile, the Atlanta Thrashers owners are fighting with each other, Tampa is looking for new investors and the New York Islanders are hinting at leaving unless they get a new arena.

"There could be other (bankrupt) teams down the road," said Zimbalist. "There are a lot of teams – as it were – skating on thin ice."
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  #434  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 4:51 PM
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NHL won't reveal rival bid for Coyotes without a fight

Kevin McGran
SPORTS REPORTER
http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/633003

The NHL has balked at producing documents related to a rival bid for the Phoenix Coyotes.

The NHL filed a motion Tuesday morning in a Phoenix court, objecting to an order to tell all it knows about an offer from White Sox owner Jerry Reinsdorf to purchase the team and keep it in Phoenix.

The lawyers for owner Jerry Moyes won the motion on Monday. It wants to compare Reinsdorf's offer – which has been shrouded in mystery – to the $212.5 million U.S. offer from Canadian billionaire Jim Balsillie, who wants to move the money-losing team to Hamilton.

The NHL's motion filed Tuesday says Moyes' lawyers shouldn't be allowed to ask for anything the team's behalf because the NHL says it is controlling the team and only its lawyers should be involved.

The central question of who controls the team will be answered next week.

"There is no justification for the efforts of ... Moyes to harass the league with such discovery that may prove wholly unnecessary," said the NHL's motion. "Premature disclosure of confidential discussions will jeapordize value for the league and all of its member teams, including the Phoenix Coyotes."

The league believes it controls the Coyotes through an "irrevocable proxy" Moyes signed in November in return for a financial bailout. The Coyotes counter the proxy only gives the league certain voting rights, and voting on a bankruptcy is not one of them.
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  #435  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 7:50 PM
FairHamilton FairHamilton is offline
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NHL won't reveal rival bid for Coyotes without a fight

Kevin McGran
SPORTS REPORTER
http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/633003

The NHL has balked at producing documents related to a rival bid for the Phoenix Coyotes.
In the software industry we call it 'vapourware'.
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  #436  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 7:53 PM
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In Arizona they were suppose to have a rally near Jobing.com Arena but an owner of the property denied them the right to do the rally. haha
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  #437  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 8:13 PM
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In the software industry we call it 'vapourware'.
NHL in Hamilton: our very own Duke Nukem Forever.
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  #438  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 9:29 PM
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In Arizona they were suppose to have a rally near Jobing.com Arena but an owner of the property denied them the right to do the rally. haha
A reporter from Phoenix on the Fan590 today said they will be very happy if they get a hundred people to their save the Coyotes rally.
You should have a bring the Coyotes to Hamilton rally in town. You'd put them to shame.
The same reporter said the feeling around Phoenix about this so far is that no one really cares either way.
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  #439  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 9:47 PM
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A reporter from Phoenix on the Fan590 today said they will be very happy if they get a hundred people to their save the Coyotes rally.
You should have a bring the Coyotes to Hamilton rally in town. You'd put them to shame.
The same reporter said the feeling around Phoenix about this so far is that no one really cares either way.
Last week I was searching online trying to find any stories in the Phoenix media about it to hear perspectives from that city. I had a hard time finding anything. So that made me wonder if there was a sense of apathy there.

And I wonder why the NHL fought to not reveal details of this rival bid? Perhaps not as great as they would have everyone believe? You'd think if it was a great bid by a white knight they would want to use it as ammunition in their court fight. Interesting.
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  #440  
Old Posted May 12, 2009, 9:53 PM
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And hey Actonite welcome to the forum. Will you be one of our out of town fans if we land this team? To steal a phrase from your town, "It's worth the drive to Hamilton."
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