What if? Changing Provincial and Territory boundaries

[Taeolas]

So, there's more talk again about merging NB, NS and PEI into 1 province..

And in another thread here, there was some discussion about a what if Ontario was split into 2 (or even 3) provinces.

There's the age old discussion on if the Turks and Caicos should become a province/territory as well. And way out there, there's talk of grabbing Maine or St. Pierre and Miquelon.

So let's let the imagination go a little wild. What ideas do people have for changing our provincial and territorial landscape? How reasonable/unreasonable would they be? What would be the capitals? Number of politicians? etc...

(Please try to be a little reasonable though; don't go making the US our 11th province. )

[ChillN]

Split Alberta into North/South Alberta at Red Deer. Then the Wildrose can practice being super fiscally conservative when they have no oil royalty money? Also it would allow Calgary to be a capital, which is something it's wanted for a long time.

[SignalHillHiker]

From East to West:

- Add Cape Breton Island to Newfoundland and Labrador.
- Make Nunatsiavut (Innu self-governed region of Labrador) its own territory.
- Unite the Maritimes into a single, bilingual province with its capital at Charlottetown.
- Don't even bother opening the can of worms that changing Quebec's borders would be.
- Split Ontario into three provinces, the obvious ones: Southern, Northeastern, Northwestern.
- Take the Thunder Bay region and add it to Manitoba.
- Split off Western Manitoba and eastern Alberta, basically the main agricultural regions, and form a greater Saskatchewan.
- Leave the rest of Alberta and B.C. as is.
- Make Yukon a province.

[someone123]

I think they should merge Atlantic Canada into one province, concentrate all provincial government departments in Halifax, and then implement an "everywhere but Halifax" tax of $5,000 per person per year. This money could be used to build a subway system or something.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think they should merge Atlantic Canada into one province, concentrate all provincial government departments in Halifax, and then implement an "everywhere but Halifax" tax of $5,000 per person per year. This money could be used to build a subway system or something.

Love it.

[Townie709]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think they should merge Atlantic Canada into one province, concentrate all provincial government departments in Halifax, and then implement an "everywhere but Halifax" tax of $5,000 per person per year. This money could be used to build a subway system or something.

Hahaha. great idea

In all seriousness, A Maritime Union (with the capital NOT being in halifax) could work very well. Newfoundland would never join an Atlantic Union if it meant relinquishing our status as a province and losing the capital city. We're already forgotten about by the RoC enough as it is

If it was put to a referendum and the two options were join a Maritime union, or leave Canada and become independent, we would most definitely choose independence.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Townie709

A Maritime Union (with the capital NOT being in halifax) could work very well.

Most of the Maritime Union talk and complaining about Halifax on the forum and in NS doesn't make any sense. There are a bunch of reasons why:

- It's not true that Halifax gets tons of money. For years it received the lowest provincial and federal investment per capita of any CMA in Canada. Even at the municipal level it pays out education transfers for the rest of NS (i.e. the municipality's annual budget includes a line item that is $40M or whatever that goes directly to fund schools in other municipalities). I don't think that exists anywhere else in Canada.
- Halifax is a cash cow for rural NS. More than half of the tax money is collected in Halifax and it pays for services in places like CB, which are much more expensive to provide per person. Because areas like PEI are separate they do not benefit from this.
- Federal government jobs aren't all being concentrated in Halifax. Federal employment there is falling significantly, just like in Ottawa and many other places.
- Halifax is the most efficient place for the NS provincial government to operate. They just wasted millions to move a couple of small departments out to Digby or wherever; virtually no employees were willing to move and office space actually cost more. If the Maritime provinces were to merge, it would be a huge waste to try to move the bureaucracy out of Halifax, and it would be particularly perverse given that one purpose of the merger is to save money. A better proposal would be to put proportional departments in Halifax, Fredericton, and Charlottetown to take advanced of the infrastructure that already exists.
- It seems to me like NB and PEI have mediocre prospects and resources compared to NS, which just had, for example, $2B in offshore exploration bids. In the future they may have a weaker bargaining position, particularly if NB continues to be managed poorly.

On a fundamental level I think a lot of Maritimers just don't understand the larger economic trends at work so they tend to think that if one place is more successful than another it must be due to favouritism. Government favouritism does exist but even without it the modern economy favours larger metropolitan areas over rural areas and small towns. That's just how it is, and provincial governments in the Maritimes aren't in a position to change it. They can try to sabotage what success exists in Halifax but they will just drive that economic activity to cities like Toronto or Calgary, losing spinoff benefits and tax revenue in the process.

[ssiguy]

I could see merging the Maritime provinces but not into an Atlantic region which would include NFLD.

Kenora area should join Manitoba ans Dryden to NB should become one Northern Ontario province. I could see the Peace Region of BC joining Alberta. People in the area already gravitate towards Alberta politically, socially, and even geographically. I could also very much see Vancouver Island forming it's own province. "Islanders" are quite distinct from the rest of the province and have nothing politically, culturally. socially, or economically in common with the Lower Mainland. When you go from The Island to Vancouver you are not just going to a bigger city but a totally different world. There really is something about all islands that create the "island mentality" which is very real and is a common characteristic of all islands around the world.

If Toronto ever wanted to leave Ontario then you would have 3 Ontarios and a Toronto....A North, Southwest, and Eastern with the capitols being SSM, London, and Kingston respectively.

[Taeolas]

I don't think anyone really seriously considers an Atlantic Union, with NF&L; but a Maritime Union is looking more and more appealing.

That said, were it to happen, I agree that Halifax should NOT be the Capital; Charlottetown seems like the best idea, followed closely by Moncton.

Halifax is big enough that even without the seat of government, it will keep going strong as a military and economic engine. By pulling the seat of government away from it, IMO it would help prevent the "Us (Halifax) vs Them (rest of Maritimes) feelings from getting much worse.

The other ideas sound intriguing (part of the reason I made this thread; to see what other ideas are out there and some reasonings why).

Going back to the Maritime Union idea; the Language issues are something that keep being brought up. One scenario I keep thinking of, but I know is full of holes that more experienced people will joyfully point out I'm sure. might be to split Northern NB off and either merge it with Quebec or let it grab the Gaspe and form a new province.

Right off the bat, I don't think northern NB necessarily wants to join Quebec (I may be wrong). And I doubt there'd be enough population to support a new Acadia province between NNB and Gaspe. But at the same time, I do wonder how things might change politically if Canada had 2 French provinces, instead of 1 and a half French provinces.


Oh and if we do ever open the constitutional can of worms Provincial reboundary'ing would entail, I'd love to see the Ottawa/Gatineau region split off into a Capital District separate from PQ/ON.

[digitboy]

I don't see any good arguments for not giving Halifax the status of capital in a new Atlantic province.

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by someone123

- Federal government jobs aren't all being concentrated in Halifax. Federal employment there is falling significantly, just like in Ottawa and many other places.

Only Ottawa has more federal jobs per capita then Halifax, out of the major cities in Canada, so that's not surprising at all.

[lubicon]

Delete NE BC (Peace River district and north to Ft Nelson) and add it to Alberta. This area is more closely aligned to Alberta geographically, physically, and economically than it is to BS anyhow.

perhaps do the same for the East Kootenay area.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

Only Ottawa has more federal jobs per capita then Halifax, out of the major cities in Canada, so that's not surprising at all.

This is a bit misleading since most of the employment is for DND workers, not bureaucrats (Victoria's #3, presumably also because of Esquimalt). The naval base has been in Halifax since before Canada has existed and the navy has tons of infrastructure there. It's not a case of arbitrary bureaucrats being put in Halifax as a favour, and those people don't really administer services in other regions.

Originally Posted by digitboy

I don't see any good arguments for not giving Halifax the status of capital in a new Atlantic province.

The only argument I have heard is that Halifax gets too much, is too big, or would be too "powerful" in a new province.

One thing I'm wondering is what's supposed to be in it for NS. It's got the best prospects of the 3 Maritime provinces because it has a larger city and more natural resources. It also has the most population of the 3 provinces and the most political clout, but for some reason it's supposed to merge with the other smaller provinces and then pay to move the capital to NB or PEI to make everybody feel better.

[PoscStudent]

^ you can figure out a "loophole" in anything it seems.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Newfoundlander

- Split Ontario into three provinces, the obvious ones: Southern, Northeastern, Northwestern.
- Take the Thunder Bay region and add it to Manitoba.

But Thunder Bay is Northwestern Ontario. Get rid of that and you're left with like, Nipigon and Terrace Bay.

Originally Posted by Newfoundlander

- Add Cape Breton Island to Newfoundland and Labrador.

- Split off Western Manitoba and eastern Alberta, basically the main agricultural regions, and form a greater Saskatchewan.

Why?

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

But Thunder Bay is Northwestern Ontario. Get rid of that and you're left with like, Nipigon and Terrace Bay.

Why?

Hmm... I wasn't aware. Then, just Kenora to Manitoba.

Why Cape Breton to us? I'm not sure if they'd want to join us, but they are definitely the same as Newfoundland in terms of ethnic heritage, accent, and reputation in the rest of Nova Scotia. And they would be most welcome. Cape Bretonners are always our favourite Nova Scotians and we could use a little chuck of territory connected to the southern Canadian mainland.

Why merge the prairies? I just think they have similar needs and it would be more efficient to address them together, rather than have three provinces dealing with chunks of it.

[someone123]

I had a look and Kingston is next after Ottawa, not Halifax. There's also a huge drop-off below Ottawa, as you'd expect. Only information for CMAs is available so there may be CAs like Fredericton with higher federal employment.

Here's the list of federal employment and total employment in selected cities:

Ottawa - 135,865/710,100 - 19.1%
Kingston - 6,972/78,200 - 8.9%
Halifax - 17,359/227,800 - 7.6%
Victoria - 10,308/182,800 - 5.6%
St. John's - 5,046/111,000 - 4.5%
Moncton - 3,163/73,800 - 4.2%
Saguenay - 2,706/65,200 - 4.1%

Labour force characteristics: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...fss04a-eng.htm
Government employment: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...ovt58a-eng.htm

[MonkeyRonin]

Realistically, what I think would be feasible and at all desirable:

Northern Ontario becomes a province. The border would be drawn along the Mattawa & French Rivers. Thunder Bay & Sudbury could duke it out for capital status.

Toronto, Montreal, and maybe Vancouver become some sort of self-governing urban areas, if not provinces of their own. Whether this would include the entire metropolitan areas or just the municipality or some other limited part would remain to be seen.

Ottawa-Gatineau becomes a National Capital Region.

Nunatsiavut and Nunavik become territories.

Originally Posted by Taeolas

And way out there, there's talk of grabbing Maine or St. Pierre and Miquelon.

Waaay out there. The US and France aren't about to give up any of their territory any time soon.

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by someone123

I had a look and Kingston is next after Ottawa, not Halifax. There's also a huge drop-off below Ottawa, as you'd expect. Only information for CMAs is available so there may be CAs like Fredericton with higher federal employment.

Here's the list of federal employment and total employment in selected cities:

Ottawa - 135,865/710,100 - 19.1%
Kingston - 6,972/78,200 - 8.9%
Halifax - 17,359/227,800 - 7.6%
Victoria - 10,308/182,800 - 5.6%
St. John's - 5,046/111,000 - 4.5%
Moncton - 3,163/73,800 - 4.2%
Saguenay - 2,706/65,200 - 4.1%

Labour force characteristics: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...fss04a-eng.htm
Government employment: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tabl...ovt58a-eng.htm

Oh sorry, Halifax is third. I also said major cities.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Toronto, Montreal, and maybe Vancouver become some sort of self-governing urban areas, if not provinces of their own. Whether this would include the entire metropolitan areas or just the municipality or some other limited part would remain to be seen.

Ottawa-Gatineau becomes a National Capital Region.

Love the bolded part - I forgot about that (having heard it on SSP previously).

And the top part is good too. I'd definitely support it.