Amtrak starts direct service to B.C.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Also, to build such an HSR correctly, we would have to relocate the Canadian and American customs office at the destination station in Vancouver (akin to YVR), that way the train would not have to stop at the border, it could reach full speed within Canadian territory, and the travel time could be advertised technically as much shorter (due to no stop at the border).

Given the dispute about paying for an extra night shift at the border to service the second Amtrak train, it's unlikely that the Feds would fund a new customs inspection location.

HSR Terminal at YVR anyone?, passengers could funnel through the YVR customs line-ups and take Canada Line downtown.

[twoNeurons]

The reason HSR always goes downtown is so it can be branded as a premium product competitive with flying.

If it was TRUE HSR, it could be located outside of the downtown core ( say Surrey ), but it would need to average ~155km/h ( end to end ) to be successful. That would put Seattle within 80 minutes of Surrey. Tack on another 40 minutes for SkyTrain (including transfer) and you're up to 2 hours.

Putting that in perspective, it would need to average ~125 km/h to do Vancouver to Seattle in 2 hours (251km).

Putting costs into perspective, the Eurostar, when it opened in 1995 averaged 171.5km/h. It took 3 hours to travel 495km between London and Paris.

I believe over 1 hour of that journey was spent in the first 100km between London and the Chunnel.

To upgrade this line, tunnels under London and a variety of upgrades had to be done. It cost £5.2bn. After it's all complete, The train can run between 260-300km/h and makes the journey in 2:35 (2:15 non-stop) after this and other improvements. Average end to end speed is 192km/h (220km/h direct).

There is a law of diminishing returns when it comes to high speed rail through cities.

Higher speed to Surrey would be far less expensive than all the way to Vancouver, but it would have to be faster along the whole line to compensate for the inconvenience. IN the long run and along the entire route, it's FAR better to replace the New West Bridge (the source of MOST of the delay) when we replace the Patullo.

And do we really think WSDOT and the US would invest in HSR tracks to Blaine if we only took HSR to Surrey?

In addition, what's cheaper... upgrading the line so that they can average 155km/h stopping in Surrey or 125km/h and stopping in Vancouver.

Considering the current tracks have a max speed limited to 127 km/h and FUTURE enhancements put that max speed around 176km/h... I think shooting for a 125km/h AVERAGE speed is our best bet.

Vancouver to Seattle in under 2 hours has a nice ring to it, don't you think?

Note, that WITHOUT investment north of the 49th, the BEST we can hope for is 3 hours, assuming WSDOT wants to pour money into tracks to Blaine.

A 2 hour trip to Seattle is not only doable, but it's reasonable. Even though WSDOT puts its future goals at 2:45 for the segment, that was pre-Federal-funding in the US.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by simonfiction

The return on that investment would justify it, surely? If we added a direct line to downtown Vancouver from Seattle's 3.5 million by building such a short amount of track, the benefits to the economy would help us with the rest of our infrastructure, such as the Broadway corridor. Or am I just being naive? Economics was never my strong point

Either way, it's a bargain. And who knows when the US political mindset will change again. This might quickly become a missed opportunity.

As long as Biden is VPOTUS, he'll be pushing rail projects that get done.

[SpongeG]

yah we don't need more companies like pixar, microsoft, sony studios to come up here - oh wait they are already here and I am sure more would come with better vancouver-seattle connections a la europe - has lucasfilm come here yet? they were looking at opening up an office here...

a proper HSR can only boost and help the west coast of which Vancouver is a part of whether people here like it or not we are better off with west coast connections than we are with toronto ones

[BCPhil]

The Grandview cut is rarely used by freight anymore it seems. Amtrak, Via, Rockymountaineer and any BNSF or CN frieght seem to schedule well with each other through the cut. CN freight is only heavy through Burnaby where the mainline joins up with the tunnel through to Second Narrows, but still it all currently schedules well. The tracks don't seem to be saturated with traffic, so I think there is room for more trains.

The trains also don't have to travel at high speeds through Vancouver. Current Via and Amtrak trains will beat a skytrain from Commercial to Braid, and I'm willing to wager Amtrak beats a Skytrain on Expo line from Main Street to the bridges. Even if the Expo line is a bit faster, it's not by much, and the added convinience of not transfering in Surrey is a wanted bonus.

All you need to add are overpasses at Cariboo, Douglas and Gilmore and the train could go a long way at moderate speeds before it needs to slow down for Boundary, Renfrew and Rupert (and even those could be made underpasses probably).

But I'm not sure that Pacific Central is the greatest station. I LOVE the building (one of my favorites in the whole city) but it might be a bit small if it were to handle 4 or more trains a day and all the buses it does.

As well, it's not right downtown. It's a bit on the "wrong side of the tracks" for a lot of people. The neighborhood around Pacific Central isn't exactly the first impression I want to leave visitors with (or the last on their way out). Walking across that park to the Skytrain can be a bit scary for a lot of people, and it's a bit long for people with luggage, and uncovered if it's raining. And most people will have to take Skytrain or a taxy as there are no hotels in the immediate walkable area.

Gentrification of Main Street would have to come with a HSR terminal. It's happening, especially to the South, but more would need to be done. The SORs in the are would need to go and be turned back into Boutique hotels. I think turning some of the Flats into a College and building hospital/medical center to the North would give the area a good vibe to tourists/business travelers. One way to guarantee the success of HSR would be to have more business destinations (for day travelers from Portland and Seattle) within easy distance of the station; like a major school, medical center or high tech office park.

The other option would be to move the terminal to Waterfront. Then it would be right in the heart of the business district, near the cruise ship terminal, sea plane port, convention center, hotels, and have a single transfer to the Canada line to YVR, or Expo Line, Seabus, or WCE. The station would need major upgrades, but it needs that anyway. And border services could be integrated with the Port as to reduce redundancy. Then depending on where the tracks go, they could be used for high speed peak hour commuting service in and out of Waterfront.

While YVR could make a good terminal, with direct access to Canada Line (there does seem to be an awful lot of room right around Templeton, no?) and proximity of border services staff (they could be shared between the station and the airport, removing the need for the train to stop at the border), it's a bit far out of downtown, and the cost of building it would probably be higher than building lower speed tracks into downtown for no time savings in a downtown bound trip.

[officedweller]

New US DOT Rail Grants
- $31 M to Washington State - including a siding at Mount Vernon.

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...to-california/

http://www.fra.dot.gov/rpd/downloads...jects_1010.pdf



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[twoNeurons]

AT least WSDOT has a plan and is slowly implementing it. Without an actual plan north of the border, we can't ask for funds from the federal government.

I wonder how much this will speed up the trip?

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

AT least WSDOT has a plan and is slowly implementing it. Without an actual plan north of the border, we can't ask for funds from the federal government.

I wonder how much this will speed up the trip?

I do know Surrey had dedicated a ROW saved for HSR if it ever comes to that. Not sure exactly where it is, but it would provide a bypass around White Rock.

[Stingray2004]

I don't know if Surrey has a dedicated ROW or not but they have studied (about ten years ago) and are looking at the relocation of the Burlington Northern Railway through White Rock/South Surrey/Birch Bay as part of their long-term transportation plan. In fact, it looks like a more direct routing along the original corridor through Hazelmere toward the 176th St. corridor is what is being entertained for "higher" speed rail, not necessarily HSR.

The project that Surrey is being asked to contribute to is the Cross Border Rail Strategy study which is a $200,000 (US$) study to evaluate the feasibility of relocating the rail line from its current alignment around the Semiahmoo Peninsula to a more direct north-south alignment at approximately 176 Street.

This U.S. study is consistent with earlier work conducted by Surrey in looking at an alternate rail corridor during the Highway 1 / Highway 99 Connector study.

http://www.surrey.ca/bylawsandcouncillibrary/5991.html

Although the cost is very high ($87 to $155 million), the benefits by removal of the Burlington Northern Sante Fe Rail line from the ocean frontages of Surrey, White Rock and Birch Bay are immeasurable in terms of a long term public amenity.

Further, relocation of this rail line is desirable to improve safety, and to accommodate higher speed trains between Vancouver, Seattle and Portland as proposed in the Pacific Northwest Passenger Rail Corridor Study (PNPRC) spearheaded by the “Cascadia” States and Provinces international forum.

http://www.surrey.ca/bylawsandcouncillibrary/5214.html

[twoNeurons]

In fact, it looks like a more direct routing along the original corridor through Hazelmere toward the 176th St. corridor is what is being entertained for "higher" speed rail, not necessarily HSR.

Depends how you define "HSR"

In the US, for example, High Speed is defined as 110mph (~177 km/h)

Incidentally, 110mph is exactly what the future plans will allow the Amtrak Cascades to run.

The current trains used have a max design speed of 200km/h. Such a shame that they may not reach that in their lifetime.

[dleung]

How feasible is the following alignment?

Instead of crawling around White Rock, the track goes along hwy 99. Several overpasses will have to be widened.


New tracks cutting across farmland and forested areas. The bottom-left diagonal section actually follows an existing axis in the property lines


A new bridge goes directly into a tunnel on the New West side


Tunnel emerges after Burnaby Lake, into a new banked curve with a wider radius. Maybe elevated structure to go over the industrial area...


Following existing/upgraded track all the way to downtown...


Without going around White Rock and New Westminster, the peach-arch to downtown segment saves about 8km, with higher speeds maintained from Peach Arch all the way to the border. I'm surprised the current trains are capable of 200kph... does that mean we won't be expecting some shiny new ones anytime in the future?

[LeftCoaster]

I dont mind the alignment, but if you are going to drop a lot of cash putting a tunnel through new west, why go along the river then cross at the pautello? Just cross at the alex fraser. There is a ton of land to build at grade tracks on Annacis island and through queensburough, then tunnel through new west and out to the tracks on the other side of Burnaby Lake. It would be a straigher even more direct route and likely wouldnt cost any more, allowing the trains to continue at high speed until the false creek flats.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by dleung

Without going around White Rock and New Westminster, the peach-arch to downtown segment saves about 8km, with higher speeds maintained from Peach Arch all the way to the border. I'm surprised the current trains are capable of 200kph... does that mean we won't be expecting some shiny new ones anytime in the future?

What you forget is that a steep grade exists between 8th Ave. and 32nd Ave. in the White Rock area - that's why the rail line was built along the Semiahmoo/Boundary Bay foreshore in the first place. Nevertheless, after looking at Google Maps, I have a suggestion permitting HSR in 2 phases from south to north:

1. A new rail line is constructed commencing in WA where the existing BNSF rail line meets the southern portion of Drayton Harbour;

2. From there it slightly curves northward on a straight alignment with 184th Ave. in Surrey;

3. At the border, it continues on a straight alignment along 184th Ave. through Hazelmere in Surrey;

4. At 184th St./24th Ave., the new rail line gently curves westward until it meets up with the existing rail line at the Hwy 91/99 interchange;

The benefits:

1. Flat gradient with no apparent ground obstruction;

2. Removes the rail line along the populated Semiahmoo/Boundary Bay foreshore;

3. Permits a 200 km/hr design speed;

Of course, it would need to be enclosed with fencing and provide for both road and farm vehicle overpasses. That would be phase 1 and the relatively "cheap" portion of an HSR line to Vancouver.

For HSR along the remainder Phase 2 of the line, a new alignment would be required along the flat gradient Hwy 99 corridor/Knight Fwy corridor in Delta/Richmond (plus two river crossings) and a tunnel under Knight St. to the False Creek railyards. Now that would be the prohibitively expensive part.

[invisibleairwaves]

^That seems a lot more realistic than a tunnel from New West to Burnaby Lake. Since Knight St. through Vancouver is almost entirely residential, it could be done via cut-and-cover without a repeat of the Cambie Village fiasco. And if the Massey Tunnel gets replaced, the old structure could be re-purposed for rail.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

I dont mind the alignment, but if you are going to drop a lot of cash putting a tunnel through new west, why go along the river then cross at the pautello? Just cross at the alex fraser. There is a ton of land to build at grade tracks on Annacis island and through queensburough, then tunnel through new west and out to the tracks on the other side of Burnaby Lake. It would be a straigher even more direct route and likely wouldnt cost any more, allowing the trains to continue at high speed until the false creek flats.

Bridges are expensive and I figured better one bridge than three. I was also thinking in terms of the likelihood that there's no money for a tunnel (yet), in which case we have to follow the existing tracks around Braid, Sapperton, etc. There are 2 essentials that must be provided on the Vancouver end for the US to agree to extending HSR up here: that is a new bridge over the fraser and a shortcut around/thru White Rock.

For the latter, I disagree with Stingray. The only alignment near the border has to be at the Peach Arch crossing, because immediately east of it are hills going up to 300 feet in elevation where it's aligned with 184th in Surrey, (and goes even higher further east). Given that, without making a massive detour to the east and back to the west, the most gentle grade north of Peach Arch is along Hwy 99. Maybe lower sections are elevated and the highest point of the track is trenched.

I no longer like the tunnel-under-new-west idea. A tunnel under Knight Street (cut&cover 1 block west that is) would be the same length (approx 6km). The benefits of the latter alignment make a more worthwhile difference. Which makes the project impossible to do Vancouver-style... ie: in phases. If we can only afford the White Rock shortcut and a replacement bridge over the Fraser, it will follow the eastern route around New West/Burnaby, and the western tunnel idea is out the window, forever.

OR unless it's something simliar to what LeftCoaster suggests, perhaps one big viaduct over Annacis Island and Queensborough, terminating right in the middle of Big Bend. Phase 1 will have the tracks after the viaduct curving right to New West. The western tunnel can be phased in as below, beginning after Boundary road and cutting diagonally across East Van to rejoin the grandview cut:

It has to be a bored tunnel... the north-south roads in Vancouver aren't straight enough for cut-and-cover. But note that the difference between the 2 methods might be less than $100 million in this case:

FYI

Subway Construction Method Cost (in millions) per Kilometre
Major Bridging ---------------------- $350
Other Significant Bridging ----------- $100
Bored Tunnel ---------------------- $86.2
Cut and Cover --------------------- $72.4
Elevated -------------------------- $43.1
At Grade -------------------------- $22.6

Stats based on Toronto subways. Cool website for costing estimates:
http://www.drlnow.ca/costanalysis.html

HSR is typically in the $30M/km range. The existing route would be 59km from downtown to the US border, 45km with the above route + shortcut across White Rock.

[LeftCoaster]

Actually I was thinking something more like this.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Eliminates the big curve at the Alex Fraser and has a very similar length tunnel to your proposal. The only major bridge would be next to the Alex Fraser, and I dont know what the AF is like structurally but perhaps it could be retrofitted to allow tracks to be suspended below the vehicle deck. Other than that the two other bridges would be quite cheap causway style bridges, not a major cost really.

[twoNeurons]

You know, there's no reason to limit ourselves to the Peace Arch Border Crossing.

Assuming a joint venture between Washington and Ottawa, A High Speed line that follows the Number #1 highway to Mt. Lehman Road in Abbotsford and then goes south from there would enable us to kill two birds with one stone. Local service in the Metro Vancouver Area and Faster higher speed rail that doesn't need to travel through urban areas.

We'd also be connecting YXX as well.

While I realize that any US bound trains would likely not make the stops, there's no reason for local trains that aren't US bound to do so.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by dleung

The only alignment near the border has to be at the Peach Arch crossing, because immediately east of it are hills going up to 300 feet in elevation where it's aligned with 184th in Surrey, (and goes even higher further east).

Given that, without making a massive detour to the east and back to the west, the most gentle grade north of Peach Arch is along Hwy 99. Maybe lower sections are elevated and the highest point of the track is trenched.

The original 1897 rail routing from the border, by the New Westminster Southern Railway Co., was the path of least gradient/resistance as follows:

1. Douglas jogging eastward;

2. Crossing the current intersection of 176th St/8th Ave.;

3. Heading as far east as 184th/MacMillan Rd in Hazelmere;

4. And then jogs back westward toward 176th St/32nd Ave and the flats;

You can still see the outline of the railbed on Google Maps. Here's the routing:



Source: http://www.vanc.igs.net

In fact, as I posted earlier, the Cross Border Rail Strategy study looked at relocating the rail line to a more direct north-south alignment at approximately 176 Street - roughly the old 1897 routing. I'm suggesting that the actual N/S corridor is along 184th.

[jsbertram]

I was looking at the Port Mann last year when construction started for the new bridge, and I wondered why the concrete piers for the old Port Mann couldn't be re-used for a new rail bridge over the Fraser.

After the steel framework of the Port Mann Bridge is removed, the concrete piers for the former main arch are large enough to build a new two or three -track railway bridge high over the Fraser River. The piers holding the causeway leading up to the old Port Mann can also be re-used after the steel road deck and concrete causeway "H" supports are removed. There's no reason that the railway deck needs to be as high as the current road deck, the new railway bridge only needs to be high enough to provide clearance for Fraser River shipping.

This new 'Port Mann Railway Bridge' can be connected on the north side to the 3-track wide spur that runs east of the buildings along Glacier St in the Mayfair industrial park. This spur already connects to the CPR line running along Lougheed Highway to the Port Coquitlam yards, so changing that connection to a Wye will allow this new 'Port Mann Railway Bridge' to also connect with rail traffic to & from the yards at Braid and the Trans Canada Highway.

On the south side of the river crossing, the new railway bridge would land between the CN rail yards, and already be aligned eastwards to connect with the CN mainline in the Fraser Heights area.

From that point, you're not that far away from Port Kells and you can connect to the abandoned ROW south through Port Kells, Clayton, Cloverdale, Hazelemere and Douglas Crossing.

[Political_R]

Originally Posted by dleung

It has to be a bored tunnel... the north-south roads in Vancouver aren't straight enough for cut-and-cover. But note that the difference between the 2 methods might be less than $100 million in this case:

FYI

Subway Construction Method Cost (in millions) per Kilometre
Major Bridging ---------------------- $350
Other Significant Bridging ----------- $100
Bored Tunnel ---------------------- $86.2
Cut and Cover --------------------- $72.4
Elevated -------------------------- $43.1
At Grade -------------------------- $22.6

Stats based on Toronto subways. Cool website for costing estimates:
http://www.drlnow.ca/costanalysis.html

HSR is typically in the $30M/km range. The existing route would be 59km from downtown to the US border, 45km with the above route + shortcut across White Rock.

Using subway costs does not account for the higher clearance needed for high-speed trains. Along with the fact that there would have to be a conversion to electric locomotives. A tunnel under Knight though I could agree with in order to add more commuter rail lines in Vancouver to reduce 99 and 91 congestion.