Second cities - Page 5

Centropolis · #81 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 2:44 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

Iowa has a primate city?

News to me.

chicago

jk

des moines is unquestionably at the center of all things iowa.

stoneycreekhotels.com

Steely Dan · #82 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 3:17 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

des moines is unquestionably at the center of all things iowa.

figuratively, and literally.

source: http://townmapsusa.com/d/map-of-des-.../des_moines_ia

iheartthed · #83 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 3:35 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

that depends on how you define "anytime soon".

if the current growth rates so far this decade continue (admittedly, that's a GIGANTIC "if"), the twin cities MSA would overtake the detroit MSA in ~16 years.

i'm not saying it's gonna happen that soon, but the gap has been closing quicker than i think some people realize.

That's what I meant. I mean that Detroit is certain to be a solid #2 (giggity) in 2020.

Austin55 · #84 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 3:36 PM**

Tulsa

The North One · #85 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 3:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

i wouldn't not go that far.

minneapolis lost a good deal of old school urban fabric to urban renewal in the postwar period.

it wasn't nearly as extreme as the evisceration of pre-war detroit, but it saw a significant loss of traditional urban fabric none-the-less (just like all midwest cities).

It was pretty extreme for Minneapolis, they basically destroyed their entire core, much like Denver that city was very aggressive in wiping out all historical core fabric. I guess Minneapolis doesn't have urban prairies but to say they have a better urban core I think is questionable and likely in the next 5 years wont be very questionable.

Anyway obviously different cities specialize in different industries, that's not a good argument for one place eclipsing the other. Detroit doesn't just have "soul" it's the engineering capital of north America and the auto industry is very relevant especially right now with self driving cars and electric vehicles and all the technology that requires. Detroit isn't doing bad in finance either since it's a hub for fintech and just landed the TCF/Chemical merger. Is Minneapolis specifically a world leader in medtech like the auto industry? Otherwise I don't get the point.

It's also weird to me that Toronto is arbitrarily excluded, really the great lakes 1st and 2nd city is a battle between Chicago and Toronto and Toronto at this point, is #1.

Crawford · #86 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 3:48 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ MSP also has a much, much stronger core than Detroit. And that's the going thing today. Central city living is much more appealing to the professional youngsters.

I think that's debatable. MSP has a healthier, wealthier core, and is a more centralized region, but historically smaller, with less urban fabric, and not particularly vibrant (the skywalks really impact the street level).

I think it's also considerably less interesting. It sorta feels like some of the Canadian downtowns; healthy but generic; like a much bigger Ottawa or much smaller Toronto (also the demographics, building typologies and historical cycles of growth more closely mirror the Canadian cores).

Steely Dan · #87 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 3:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by The North One

It's also weird to me that Toronto is arbitrarily excluded

toronto isn't arbitrarily excluded.

it's in fucking canada. there's nothing arbitrary about that fact.

no part of canada is part of the midwest.

iheartthed · #88 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 3:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

toronto isn't arbitrarily excluded.

it's in fucking canada.

no part of canada is part of the midwest.

Windsor kinda is, since it's part of Metro Detroit. But agree that Toronto is not Midwest, and this isn't a discussion about Great Lakes cities.

the urban politician · #89 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 3:57 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

toronto isn't arbitrarily excluded.

it's in fucking canada.

no part of canada is part of the midwest.

I claim the entire nation of Canada as a part of the midwest, with its Miami (Chicago) as its capital

subterranean · #90 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 4:16 PM**

Windsorites are Detroit's Bridge and Tunnel crowd.

Jonboy1983 · #91 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 4:25 PM**

When I think of cities, I usually go by the city-proper population data. Here is my list of 2nd cities:

Pennsylvania - Pittsburgh - born and raised

Ohio - Cleveland - visited the R&R HOF on a cross-state road trip ending at Cedar Point.

New Jersey - Atlantic City. Visited here at least a few times

New York - Buffalo - drove through on my way to Niagara Falls several times

Delaware - Dover - went for a job interview here

Florida - Miami - connected through the airport when traveling to/from Aruba

Crawford · #92 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 4:37 PM**

^
Cincy is OH's second city; Cleveland is first.

Philly is NJ's second city.

NY State has no second city; the three next largest metros are all roughly the same size.

And Miami is obviously FL's dominate hegemon. Tampa and Orlando are roughly same size and next in line.

suburbanite · #93 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 4:51 PM**

Looking for countries where the capital is the clear second city after the main economic and population center.

Ankara for Turkey, with a severe 10 million person drop off from Istanbul, and then another 2 million to the third largest city.

Maybe Vietnam. Hanoi is close population wise (or larger by some measures), but Ho Chi Minh is the clear economic center.

Abuja, Nigeria was one that first came to mind, but it looks the 2-4 largest cities are close population wise.

Jonboy1983 · #94 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 5:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

^
Cincy is OH's second city; Cleveland is first.

Philly is NJ's second city.

NY State has no second city; the three next largest metros are all roughly the same size.

And Miami is obviously FL's dominate hegemon. Tampa and Orlando are roughly same size and next in line.

Going by city-proper population, Columbus, OH is the primary city - there are over 700k residents who call Columbus home. Believe it or not, but Jacksonville is FLA's most populous city at almost 900k inhabitants.

I even stated in my post I was going by city-proper population; not MSA or CSA

The North One · #95 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 5:12 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

toronto isn't arbitrarily excluded.

it's in fucking canada. there's nothing arbitrary about that fact.

no part of canada is part of the midwest.

Which is an arbitrary government line. Regions usually go beyond such lines.

Midwest itself is a total nonsensical arbitrary term that really should have stopped being popularly used a century ago. How is Detroit lumped with Minneapolis and Des Moines and not a city that's a 4 hour drive away in a country that it's heavily tied to in trade and culturally really isn't all that different.

iheartthed · #96 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 5:16 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Looking for countries where the capital is the clear second city after the main economic and population center.

Ankara for Turkey, with a severe 10 million person drop off from Istanbul, and then another 2 million to the third largest city.

Maybe Vietnam. Hanoi is close population wise (or larger by some measures), but Ho Chi Minh is the clear economic center.

Abuja, Nigeria was one that first came to mind, but it looks the 2-4 largest cities are close population wise.

Maybe Beijing? It's not the second largest population center in China, but it is within striking distance.

Also Delhi for sure fits this criteria.

suburbanite · #97 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 5:20 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Maybe Beijing? It's not the second largest population center in China, but it is within striking distance.

To me the Chinese government plays too large role in the economy to call Beijing a true second city. With connections to the government so crucial to successful business management, I wonder what city actually has more power at the end of the day.

iheartthed · #98 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 5:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by The North One

Which is an arbitrary government line. Regions usually go beyond such lines.

Midwest itself is a total nonsensical arbitrary term that really should have stopped being popularly used a century ago. How is Detroit lumped with Minneapolis and Des Moines and not a city that's a 4 hour drive away in a country that it's heavily tied to in trade and culturally really isn't all that different.

Growing up in Detroit, Minneapolis seemed a world away. Toronto always seemed much closer... But Detroit is likely the only major American metropolis that gets the CBC over public airwaves.

Steely Dan · #99 Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 5:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by The North One

Which is an arbitrary government line. Regions usually go beyond such lines.

i don't see international borders as being arbitrary in the same light as city limits or state borders. international borders have very real consequences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The North One

Midwest itself is a total nonsensical arbitrary term that really should have stopped being popularly used a century ago.

nonsensical, arbitrary, or otherwise, "the midwest" is a term that is still very much popularly used to this day whether you like it or not. and it was in fact the region that was being discussed.

to the best of my knowledge, no part of canada has ever been included in "the midwest", thus the omission of toronto from the discussion was in no way arbitrary, despite your accusations.

chicago is the "1st city" of the midwest.

on that i would think there can be no argument.

detroit is the "2nd city" of the midwest.

but minneapolis is nipping at detroit's heels and that was the basis of what people were talking about.

toronto is the "1st city" of canada and isn't relevant to discussions of the urban pecking order of the midwest.

iheartthed · #**100** Posted **Mar 29, 2019, 5:28 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by suburbanite

To me the Chinese government plays too large role in the economy to call Beijing a true second city. With connections to the government so crucial to successful business management, I wonder what city actually has more power at the end of the day.

Makes sense, I agree. But Shanghai is theoretically the financial center of China.