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  #161  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2017, 2:24 PM
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This has actually turned into an odd conversation where things have become a little muddled (between the different commentators) so it is becoming a little difficult to articulate a proper response to all, but I will try.

I agree that culture is a major factor in violent crime rates, but it is also just one of many factors.

A lot of what is being said here is actually very interesting and I am not fully against it (actually agree with a lot of it). Of course some of it I also think is complete nonsense, like blaming globalization for Americas problems with gun culture...

Ant131531 for example made a great point about the brain drain problem, where those who are naturally gifted in poor nations / areas are generally absorbed into wealthy more stable societies, creating a positive feedback loop that keeps poorer nations / areas remaining poor and unstable.

My biggest gripe though (and maybe this was not articulated well enough in my other posts) is the idea that certain populations of people are GENETICALLY more violent than others. This is NONSENSE IMO. And trust me, I am not PC or an SJW (one only has to follow my commentary on other threads to know this), but this is very dangerous thinking.

Think of a controlled experiment, you take 1000 newborns from Africa, 1000 newborns from Europe, and 1000 newborns from Asia. None of these children are given any cultural / social information about their heritage / culture. They are all raised together separate from society with the same education. I am willing to bet my life that being raised from a clean slate that incidents of violence and average IQ would be the same among all 3 groups. Therefore, different groups of people are not generically predisposed to be more violent or to have a higher IQ.

If you actually do believe that in such a scenario that the 1000 black children would grow up to have a higher rate of violence and a lower IQ than their European and East Asian counterparts, then you are racist, simple as that.

And sorry, discounting war time aggression because it is "group" and "organized" is a huge cop-out. Both Japan and Germany for example were the aggressors, they were not simply defending themselves (fighting a war out of necessity). During the war Japanese soldiers for example killed Chinese and other civilians en masse, not to mention the unnecessary violent rape of uncountable Chinese and Korean women. These are very violent actions. If Japanese were genetically less violent then there would not have been a thirst to go to war in the first place and there definitely would not have been mass murder and rape of civilians. Same goes for the Germans obviously. And the Chinese themselves during their revolutions and unification. Also interesting to note that Taiwan (which is essentially genetically the same as Eastern China) has a relatively high homicide rate. Try to explain that through DNA

I also feel that if you are going to discount war time aggression, then terrorist violence should also be discounted? It is group orientated, it is organized. So are gangs when you get down to it.
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  #162  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2017, 2:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ant131531 View Post
All that high IQ and white people still elected someone like Donald Trump to lead one of the greatest countries in the world meanwhile all of those low IQ minorities laugh and lament as they watch Donald Trump slowly destroy the foundations of this country.
Take this shit somewhere else. He is not even in office yet.
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  #163  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2017, 5:06 PM
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What nonsense. The US murder rate is an outlier because young African American males murder each other at rates that are around be 20x higher pe capita than white males of the same age (not to mention Asian males). This murder rate occurs despite African Americans having by most standards a moderately high standard of living. This might be an inconvenient truth for you but it's truth none the less. And yes, the homicide disparity does come down mostly to culture; to a malign gun and gang culture that appears have rooted itself in a.a. Communities within certain cities. By the way, a similar culture exists in native communities in Canada: if these populations represented the same share of the total that African Americans do in the us, Canadian homicide rates would be much much higher.

US education levels, for anyone outside of the underclass and Central American immigrant population, is much higher than in most European countries (see the pisa reports broken out by state and ethnic groups where white and Asian American score very highly).

The us is no more of a frontier nation than Canada (see: sales of SUVs and pickups in both countries compared to Europe). The social safety net is not quite as generous, although comparable to Canada in many states.

Rather than the supposed lack of a social safety net, or cultural factors, most of the reason this malign gun and gang culture (and similarly the opioid epidemic affecting all of North America) has arisen is due to economics and globalization, not least the loss of around 5 million manufacturing jobs which previously provided less educated people with jobs and prosperity. Canada has had oil to employ people,while a place like Japan is heavily protectionist and is also one of the few developed countries able to maintain strong manufacturing capacity in the face of rapacious outsourcing.
No, its due to the war on drugs.
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  #164  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2017, 8:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post


Think of a controlled experiment, you take 1000 newborns from Africa, 1000 newborns from Europe, and 1000 newborns from Asia. None of these children are given any cultural / social information about their heritage / culture. They are all raised together separate from society with the same education. I am willing to bet my life that being raised from a clean slate that incidents of violence and average IQ would be the same among all 3 groups. Therefore, different groups of people are not generically predisposed to be more violent or to have a higher IQ.

If you actually do believe that in such a scenario that the 1000 black children would grow up to have a higher rate of violence and a lower IQ than their European and East Asian counterparts, then you are racist, simple as that.
They've done this. They're called twin adoption studies. They find that socioeconomics/cultural factors have almost no impact on IQ

As I've said before you're completely unaware of the literature on the topic. It's amazing how willing you are to bet your life on a topic you've clearly spent no time researching.
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  #165  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2017, 9:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
Again, violence comes down to several factors: (...) religion (usually nations where religion plays a smaller role are less violent, but this is intertwined with education and other issues)
Disagree on this one. It totally depends on what the religion in question preaches. If everyone in a given nation is genuinely convinced that their soul will spend eternity in hell if they don't behave, then they will behave. On the other hand, if you promise them paradise and many virgins for murdering infidels, then that's what they'll do.


Quote:
And talking about South America, there is a hodgepodge of ethnicity, African, European, Asian, Native, and it is all mixed together, yet most South American countries are among the most dangerous in the world!
... it just shows the "violence gene" is dominant not recessive
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  #166  
Old Posted Jan 12, 2017, 11:20 PM
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As someone who has lived in two different Chinese cities (a massive city of 8 million and mid-sized one of a bit under a million) over the last several years, I can say that there is indeed crime in Chinese cities, though the majority of it on the surface is limited to petty theft. Bikes, scooters, etc., are stolen often. Wallets and purses are stolen often. Computers (laptops) are stolen often. Fights are not uncommon, though are usually limited to scuffles in areas with heavy drinking. The drug trade is rampant in SW China, where I currently live, as drugs flow from Laos and Myanmar into Kunming and Chengdu, and from there to the rest of China. Guns, of course, are less common (though many villagers still have some leftover from pre-Revolutionary days that are hidden in their roofs, etc.). Human trafficking is unfortunately not uncommon in some areas. In other areas, young girls are kidnapped to become brides - across the Vietnam border especially this is not uncommon (in both directions). Prostitution (forced or otherwise) is common in larger cities, especially those with lots of expats or foreign/domestic tourists. I will say that the local authorities truly are doing a lot to stop these sorts of things, thankfully.

Generally, the culture is more submissive than Western countries, so crime is often less. There are also severe penalties for those that break the law and examples are often made of those who do so - especially for things like possession of drugs, weapons, etc. Lately, anti-corruption crackdowns have been transforming aspects of the culture (in a good way, albeit slowly).

I can't give percentages, only anecdotes from my own experiences and those of other expats (as well as local friends). I have an education and development business in SW China and work with city officials in a few areas, so beyond research and statistics related to my own work, I can't provide numbers.
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  #167  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2017, 6:18 AM
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Originally Posted by dc_denizen View Post
What nonsense. The US murder rate is an outlier because young African American males murder each other at rates that are around be 20x higher pe capita than white males of the same age (not to mention Asian males). This murder rate occurs despite African Americans having by most standards a moderately high standard of living. This might be an inconvenient truth for you but it's truth none the less. And yes, the homicide disparity does come down mostly to culture; to a malign gun and gang culture that appears have rooted itself in a.a. Communities within certain cities. By the way, a similar culture exists in native communities in Canada: if these populations represented the same share of the total that African Americans do in the us, Canadian homicide rates would be much much higher.

And why do you think that is? It's not because the US has virtuously taken it upon self to be "burdened" with all those scary black folks, nor is it some fluke of circumstance, or a problem it's not equipped with the means to fix. It's because of long standing systematic failures, with very conscious decisions to segregate communities, outsource jobs, defund services, prioritize the rich, create a punitive legal system, militarize the police, allow unfettered access to guns, and to discriminate against & marginalize the black population - a population, that once again, only exists because of a very conscious decision to bring in millions of them as slaves. This is the path the American people - members of one of the most prosperous societies to ever have existed - have chosen, and the third-world murder rate is the result.

The ethnic composition of other developed nations does not take away from the fact that they've taken a different approach, and the lesser murder rates are just one of the many benefits they've reaped. All those other wealthy countries still have an underclass population, but what's unique to America is that it's so large - and that's a failure of the country (or probably more accurately, a failure of Republicans).
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  #168  
Old Posted Jan 13, 2017, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
And why do you think that is? It's not because the US has virtuously taken it upon self to be "burdened" with all those scary black folks, nor is it some fluke of circumstance, or a problem it's not equipped with the means to fix. It's because of long standing systematic failures, with very conscious decisions to segregate communities, outsource jobs, defund services, prioritize the rich, create a punitive legal system, militarize the police, allow unfettered access to guns, and to discriminate against & marginalize the black population - a population, that once again, only exists because of a very conscious decision to bring in millions of them as slaves. This is the path the American people - members of one of the most prosperous societies to ever have existed - have chosen, and the third-world murder rate is the result.

The ethnic composition of other developed nations does not take away from the fact that they've taken a different approach, and the lesser murder rates are just one of the many benefits they've reaped. All those other wealthy countries still have an underclass population, but what's unique to America is that it's so large - and that's a failure of the country (or probably more accurately, a failure of Republicans).
At some point, you have to take on personal responsibility and stop blaming other people(s) for your own problems. Those that do this will prosper.

Weak minded people will always place blame on others for their own personal failures.
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  #169  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2017, 7:54 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
And why do you think that is? It's not because the US has virtuously taken it upon self to be "burdened" with all those scary black folks, nor is it some fluke of circumstance, or a problem it's not equipped with the means to fix. It's because of long standing systematic failures, with very conscious decisions to segregate communities, outsource jobs, defund services, prioritize the rich, create a punitive legal system, militarize the police, allow unfettered access to guns, and to discriminate against & marginalize the black population - a population, that once again, only exists because of a very conscious decision to bring in millions of them as slaves. This is the path the American people - members of one of the most prosperous societies to ever have existed - have chosen, and the third-world murder rate is the result.

The ethnic composition of other developed nations does not take away from the fact that they've taken a different approach, and the lesser murder rates are just one of the many benefits they've reaped. All those other wealthy countries still have an underclass population, but what's unique to America is that it's so large - and that's a failure of the country (or probably more accurately, a failure of Republicans).
"they've taken a different approach". how naive you are to think this.

Other N American and European countries, were majority white until incredibly recently. American society has been dealing with different racial groups living in close proximity since the 19th century, to varying degrees of success.

"Other countries" have not and when they did, the result was not too wonderful either (see: aboriginals in Australia and Canadian residential schools for natives) compared to the experience of blacks in the US during the same period.

You have a very blinkered view of minority life in the (post civil war) US. Institutionalized discrimination was a fact of life, but so was a thriving segregated middle class, black doctors, black lawyers, black colleges, black sports teams and leagues, black democratically elected representatives, etc. When the de-segregation became law of the land (after a majority vote), the government used all legal means to enforce the law, to the point of forcibly integrating city neighborhoods even in the face of opposition from white residents. During the post-civil rights areas, Black Americans have benefitted from enormous government largesse in the form (for example) of affirmative action and welfare programs--again the result of conscious decisions and majority votes in favor of federal action. Of course, in the US today there is more or less no systematic discrimination at all currently - "militarized police" are largely a fiction and blacks are killed at lower rates, per capita of crimes committed, than whites. black lives matter is built on lies and propaganda.

Anyhow, we are talking about the behavior of ultra-violent individuals within certain neighborhoods of Chicago, than leads these areas' murder rates to exceed even the (very high) average for black Americans. their behavior likely comes down to certain local cultural pathologies, rather than anything systemic.
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Last edited by dc_denizen; Jan 15, 2017 at 8:05 PM.
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  #170  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2017, 9:41 PM
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American society has been dealing with different racial groups living in close proximity since the 19th century, to varying degrees of success.
19th century? How about the 17th century, since the first slaves were brought to the US not long after the Pilgrims arrived. Not to mention the fact there were already American Indians here the moment those same Pilgrims arrived.
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