Light Rail in the Maritimes

[Taeolas]

So over in the Sydney thread, there's talk about how they are doing a light rail study for Sydney.

Originally Posted by StatelyElms

Province funds Cape Breton University's light rail feasibility study

https://www.cbu.ca/newsroom/releases...al-light-rail/

Work on the study is expected to begin immediately.

On the one hand, it seems really premature. But at the same time, as our communities are growing and the desire for greener transit options are becoming more desirable, I'd dare say most of our cities should be laying the groundwork for eventual light rail projects.

From what I can tell, Kitchener/Waterloo started their ION project in 2009 (finally opening it in 2019) at a population of 400,000. So we're a ways away from that point. But at the same time, if we establish where we might want those lines to run now, we can secure right of ways and encourage growth in those directions while the urban fabric is more flexible.

So, this thread is mostly theoretical, but here's a chance to do some city planning. Pick your favorite city(s) and figure out where you would want to run a LRT system through.

[Nouvellecosse]

It's great that the CBRM is finally growing again. Not so great that the growth is so shocking to them that it's causing some type of mental episode.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

It's great that the CBRM is finally growing again. Not so great that the growth is so shocking to them that it's causing some type of mental episode.

A light rail study is a mental episode? Agree it borders on delusional but why not have the study on the books and next progressive federal government say 2029 or 2033 might hand out 100% funding for rail and you are ready to benefit.

[MonctonRad]

This is definitely a testament to Dave (I'm entitled to my entitlements) Dingwall's ability to grift a buck from any source possible.

Still, it is interesting to see CBRM being more progressive regarding LRT than HRM. Maybe it will kick Halifax city council into being a little more proactive themselves......

[darkharbour]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

So over in the Sydney thread, there's talk about how they are doing a light rail study for Sydney.



On the one hand, it seems really premature. But at the same time, as our communities are growing and the desire for greener transit options are becoming more desirable, I'd dare say most of our cities should be laying the groundwork for eventual light rail projects.

From what I can tell, Kitchener/Waterloo started their ION project in 2009 (finally opening it in 2019) at a population of 400,000. So we're a ways away from that point. But at the same time, if we establish where we might want those lines to run now, we can secure right of ways and encourage growth in those directions while the urban fabric is more flexible.

So, this thread is mostly theoretical, but here's a chance to do some city planning. Pick your favorite city(s) and figure out where you would want to run a LRT system through.

It's not LRTs, but logically the corridor between Saint John and Moncton would have proper rail service again, given that the existing track system runs through the heart of some the largest commuting suburbs (Quispamsis+Rothesay+Hampton) in the province and ties together the two largest cities. Rail stations along the corridor would drive growth in the whole south/southeastern portion of the province and allow for greater diversity of housing options as both cities grow.

The problem is that the rail line is very heavily used by commercial trains - which is only going to increase - and would need a parallel track to service passenger rail without being completely at the mercy of the existing cargo/freight trains schedules.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

A light rail study is a mental episode? Agree it borders on delusional but why not have the study on the books and next progressive federal government say 2029 or 2033 might hand out 100% funding for rail and you are ready to benefit.

I would consider it more than "bordering" on delusional considering their current transit service levels are so low that no route has weekday frequency of more than an hour. Most of their 12 routes have little to no service on the weekend, and none have any service on holidays. If they conduct a study now it will show that spending on rail is ludicrous, and by the time ridership and growth are anywhere near showing otherwise the study will be out-dated to the point of being worthless.

It would be different if they were just walking down the street and someone was handing out free studies. Then it would make sense to say, "Hey someone is handing out free estimates. No harm in taking one, right?" But studies cost money and distract from other more productive things.

[q12]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

This is definitely a testament to Dave (I'm entitled to my entitlements) Dingwall's ability to grift a buck from any source possible.

Still, it is interesting to see CBRM being more progressive regarding LRT than HRM. Maybe it will kick Halifax city council into being a little more proactive themselves......

Spot on about the grifting.

At least there is a plan in the final phase thanks to the Joint Regional Transportation Agency
planning a regional transportation system for Halifax and surrounding communities.

Light rail is likely going to be part of this plan based on what we've been hearing from the Agency.

https://jrta.ca/

Spring-Summer 2024
Detailed Analysis
Implementation Planning

Summer-Fall 2024
Draft Plan
Stage 3 Engagement

Fall 2024
Final Plan




This is a statement on the new commuter ferries for Bedford from the agencies:

Joint Regional Transportation Agency (March 4)



An exciting announcement this morning from the province, the municipality, and the federal government - a joint investment to build the Mill Cove Ferry Service, which will include five electric ferries, two terminals and a maintenance facility.

The Mill Cove Ferry project aligns with our Regional Transportation Plan, as the Mill Cove Ferry service will efficiently move people via higher order transit (transit with a dedicated right-of-way), enable transit-oriented development in the area, and improve transportation connectivity.

[adamuptownsj]

On the subject of CBRM, it's not really growing-- it just stopped collapsing. 2021 population was down 600 people/.6% from 2016. Absolutely weird population distribution too.

Originally Posted by darkharbour

It's not LRTs, but logically the corridor between Saint John and Moncton would have proper rail service again, given that the existing track system runs through the heart of some the largest commuting suburbs (Quispamsis+Rothesay+Hampton) in the province and ties together the two largest cities. Rail stations along the corridor would drive growth in the whole south/southeastern portion of the province and allow for greater diversity of housing options as both cities grow.

The problem is that the rail line is very heavily used by commercial trains - which is only going to increase - and would need a parallel track to service passenger rail without being completely at the mercy of the existing cargo/freight trains schedules.

Is there even room for a parallel track? Would a parallel track be better served carrying additional freight?

Saint John-Rothesay [and/or Quispamsis]-Hampton-Sussex-???-Moncton-Moncton Airport is probably the only place in the Maritimes where intercity rail makes any sense, even dubious sense. Fredericton has permanently removed itself from any rail discussion, commercial or passenger, by replacing rail with trails.

[KnoxfordGuy]

It's giving the monorail episode from The Simpsons.

[josh_cat_eyes]

If Moncton ever got big enough, I always thought a line from the mall along the highway to the airport would be nice (at least get some sort of bus out to the airport, man they have nothing!) also thought that the rail corridor & overpass adjacent to Killiam drive could prove to be useful at some point for public transportation. This is obviously looking very far into the future.

However, that being said, as was previously mentioned, a passenger line from Moncton to Saint John makes a TON of sense. On the Moncton end you could have a commuter line from peditcodiac & Salisbury and on the Saint John end you could have even more (rothesay, Quispamsis, Hampton, Norton, Sussex. You could potentially just turn the whole line into a regional commuter rail system. Expand it north to Miramichi and south to Memramcook, Dorchester, Sackville & Amherst. It has long term potential for sure, especially with the population growth in the area.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by josh_cat_eyes

If Moncton ever got big enough, I always thought a line from the mall along the highway to the airport would be nice (at least get some sort of bus out to the airport, man they have nothing!) also thought that the rail corridor & overpass adjacent to Killiam drive could prove to be useful at some point for public transportation. This is obviously looking very far into the future.

However, that being said, as was previously mentioned, a passenger line from Moncton to Saint John makes a TON of sense. On the Moncton end you could have a commuter line from peditcodiac & Salisbury and on the Saint John end you could have even more (rothesay, Quispamsis, Hampton, Norton, Sussex. You could potentially just turn the whole line into a regional commuter rail system. Expand it north to Miramichi and south to Memramcook, Dorchester, Sackville & Amherst. It has long term potential for sure, especially with the population growth in the area.

Norton is too small-- way too small. Same with Dorchester. Salisbury sure, but is Petitcodiac too small?

Going to Miramichi would be almost useless. Nobody commutes that way. I am sure the locals would rather Route 11 gets the stretch between Kouchibouguac and Miramichi upgraded to a super-two controlled access, and to the south, twinned up to Bouctouche. Miramichi has some nagging Route 8 issues they want resolved too I think.

If you build a spur anywhere, make it go to booming commuter-filled Shediac. There's still rail ROW to Route 15.

It's implausible but a Shediac-Romeo LeBlanc-Avenir Centre-Salisbury route would probably see more use than anything in the Maritimes outside Halifax would. Maybe a North Moncton platform.

[Taeolas]

Well this went in a different direction then I was expecting, but it is interesting to see the chatter.

That said, to touch on the regional passenger rail side of the equation, I agree and have advocated that a Halifax-Moncton-SJ service is way past due. Ideally we should be looking at twice daily service between those three cities. Since it is interprovincial, that does overlap VIA's mandate, and VIA has no interest in anything outside the Corridor.

So thinking more of this, I wonder if NB should go it alone to start. Set up an NB GO company that will set up a PAX service between SJ and Moncton. The rail lines are there, but overburdened, but it might be enough to negotiate for daily services between the cities to start, at least until the impetus for rail line twinning (or even tripling) can get through. Since it's just within NB, it can be sold as a regional Commuter rail system, similar to the GO network around Toronto. (And spurring out to Shediac would be an easy obvious expansion).

Expanding to Halifax would be a second no brainer, but would probably require negotiating with the Feds and/or cooperation with VIA somehow. But maybe NS could get the ball rolling by setting up a company that does Truro to Halifax with obvious expansion plans to Amherst (with extra obvious plans to eventually link to Moncton once the politics are sorted out.)

The NB line would expand out to Sackville with a similar obvious intention to link to the NS company in the future.

Back to the NB side, Higgs won't even consider anything like this. But maybe this is something Coon and the Green party could start pushing for, especially if we end up with a Liberal minority gov coming forward.

[adamuptownsj]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Well this went in a different direction then I was expecting, but it is interesting to see the chatter.

That said, to touch on the regional passenger rail side of the equation, I agree and have advocated that a Halifax-Moncton-SJ service is way past due. Ideally we should be looking at twice daily service between those three cities. Since it is interprovincial, that does overlap VIA's mandate, and VIA has no interest in anything outside the Corridor.

So thinking more of this, I wonder if NB should go it alone to start. Set up an NB GO company that will set up a PAX service between SJ and Moncton. The rail lines are there, but overburdened, but it might be enough to negotiate for daily services between the cities to start, at least until the impetus for rail line twinning (or even tripling) can get through. Since it's just within NB, it can be sold as a regional Commuter rail system, similar to the GO network around Toronto. (And spurring out to Shediac would be an easy obvious expansion).

Expanding to Halifax would be a second no brainer, but would probably require negotiating with the Feds and/or cooperation with VIA somehow. But maybe NS could get the ball rolling by setting up a company that does Truro to Halifax with obvious expansion plans to Amherst (with extra obvious plans to eventually link to Moncton once the politics are sorted out.)

The NB line would expand out to Sackville with a similar obvious intention to link to the NS company in the future.

Back to the NB side, Higgs won't even consider anything like this. But maybe this is something Coon and the Green party could start pushing for, especially if we end up with a Liberal minority gov coming forward.

Any incoming Liberal government will get back to work on Kent and Westmoreland coastal highways. They know who butters their bread. For better or worse, the PCs don't do local patronage very well. Hell, even the jail only ended up in Austin's riding because Fredericton didn't want it! The Nova Scotia PCs are more than willing to spend taxpayer money on rural highways. Greens are not super likely to burn their political capital on new infrastructure, either.

As convenient as taking a train from Harbour Station to the Avenir Centre would be, there is almost no economic impetus. If it had more limited stops, say, Harbour Station-one stop in KV-Sussex-Avenir Centre, it would get decent use on Fridays and on the weekend. But three hours to Moncton would be absolutely brutal if you're stopping 5-6 times. I'd drive in that case.

Truro-Enfield/YHZ-Bedford-Halifax would be functional, probably more than an NB leg, and could fill in later. Stopping in Amherst AND Sackville would be a political necessity for any connection, but would be annoying.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I would consider it more than "bordering" on delusional considering their current transit service levels are so low that no route has weekday frequency of more than an hour. Most of their 12 routes have little to no service on the weekend, and none have any service on holidays. If they conduct a study now it will show that spending on rail is ludicrous, and by the time ridership and growth are anywhere near showing otherwise the study will be out-dated to the point of being worthless.

It would be different if they were just walking down the street and someone was handing out free studies. Then it would make sense to say, "Hey someone is handing out free estimates. No harm in taking one, right?" But studies cost money and distract from other more productive things.

Agreed. It's more of a typical Nova Scotia spread the money around create some jobs than anything serious. I guess all of the $600k will be spent on local salaries. The obsession in the province that Halifax gets special treatment when it's the only urban place is just weird.

[josh_cat_eyes]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Well this went in a different direction then I was expecting, but it is interesting to see the chatter.

I initially starting thinking about a Moncton one, but it’s really hard to plan a big system for a small city.

The problem with having LTR in a small city is, will the ridership make it worth it. I wonder if a regional rail system AND a local commuter rail could function together. Regional lines could be Saint John, KV, Sussex, Moncton, Sackville. Local ones could be Grand Bay, Saint John, KV, Hampton & Peticodiac, Salisbury, Moncton, Dieppe, Shediac. Something line this anyway.