Baseball or Basketball - what would do better here?

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by Urban_Genius

It's the NBA. But even that isn't likely. Although, the Grizzlies should have never left, I don't think the NBA will be very interested in having a team in Vancouver. To be honest, that's for the better. The NBA has a large amount of issues plaguing that league and its no loss to the city of Vancouver to not have that league in town. There's no way a baseball team would work in Vancouver. Toronto and Montreal could barely sustain a team, why would Vancouver be able to?


PS - Nice to see the Lions win last night. The Lions are far better than their 2-6 record indicates.

I'm not sure a lot of people share your sentiments, but I respect your opinion on it. I think the NBA grieves that it didn't work the first time around. But the NBA is no stranger to going back to the cities it first left. Minneapolis (had the Lakers, before they moved to LA; Charlotte --> Hornets, before they left, and have the Bobcats now, etc). Basketball is a popular sport here in the lower mainland, you have a lot of asians actually playing the sport (a ton of philippinos, chinese, east indians, etc). I think the NBA still sees Vancouver as a gateway to Asia (Japan, Korea, China, Philippines, Taiwan, India, etc), and with good management, and solid LOCAL ownership, I think the NBA product can, and will thrive here. There is a market for pro basketball (at it's highest).

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by logan5

Stadium requirements for a new franchise or newly relocated team would be more stringent than an already established franchise like Toronto. There is already concern at BC Place about the height of the scoreboard. The fact is, its not a very good baseball venue. While on the other hand Rogers Arena is a good basketball venue, with willing local ownership.

Exactly. Aquilini's have been in the news the last couple years about wanting an NBA franchise, this is no surprise. He was connected to several teams, the Pacers, the Trailblazers, and now, the Hornets. Time will tell if he's willing to make a go at it. The best time would be shortly after the lock-out is done. I think, as of right now, there is nobody who wants to buy the Hornets, much like no one wants the Coyotes of Phoenix.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Why is that?

The Blue Jays have not played in a baseball-only facility for more than two decades and have no plans to play in one.

If the new BC Place is indeed configurable for major league baseball, then we have a newly-renovated, state-of-the-art facility ready to host MLB at a moment's notice too.

Just for reference, here's what BC place looks like with Baseball (before renos):



Look at the right-field line seating. That looks horrible.

Here's the Metrodome in Minneapolis for example where the Twins finally left last year for their new Target Field. Which, was apparently the worst ballpark in the majors after the Expos left Montreal:



Baseball at BC place would work on the short term (2 to 3 years), but it's clearly a football/soccer venue first and foremost.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

Just for reference, here's what BC place looks like with Baseball (before renos):



Look at the right-field line seating. That looks horrible.

Here's the Metrodome in Minneapolis for example where the Twins finally left last year for their new Target Field. Which, was apparently the worst ballpark in the majors after the Expos left Montreal:



Baseball at BC place would work on the short term (2 to 3 years), but it's clearly a football/soccer venue first and foremost.

That's why I don't think MLB would work here in Van., because if it needs a brand new ballpark. I just cannot see it being done. Hard enough for the 'Caps to get their new soccer-specific waterfront stadium done, can you imagine the size of a MLB ballpark for Van? How would that ever get done? It wouldn't, and couldn't be with taxpayers money. Just wouldn't make sense after BC Place has just been renovated.

NBA will come here before MLB ever will. Although, I wouldn't mind both coming here

[Whalleyboy]

My money would be MLB would work better here in the long run. Especially getting numbers from people in Surrey/Abbotsford. Just look at the numbers for the womens canada cup which is held annually in surrey. In 2004 they had about 94000 people come through the gate. Thats womens and in Surrey. Also with Brett Lawrie now playing with blue jays people from the west coast are a little more excite about MLB since we have a local boy in the big league. Surrey's whalley little league is also pretty big which likely mean quite abit of fans from there. While Vancouver itself i dont see being the biggest fans of MLB the surrounding suburbs i can see drawing into it. cause baseball is pretty big out in abbotsford too.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

My money would be MLB would work better here in the long run. Especially getting numbers from people in Surrey/Abbotsford. Just look at the numbers for the womens canada cup which is held annually in surrey. In 2004 they had about 94000 people come through the gate. Thats womens and in Surrey. Also with adam loewen now playing with blue jays people from the west coast are a little more excite about MLB since we have a local boy in the big league. Surrey's whalley little league is also pretty big which likely mean quite abit of fans from there. While Vancouver itself i dont see being the biggest fans of MLB the surrounding suburbs i can see drawing into it. cause baseball is pretty big out in abbotsford too.

But how many of those people from the suburbs are willing to drive out to Vancouver for games? That's a lot of traveling. I'm not convinced that people would drive for games in Van. With that being said, I still see the new ballpark as a hindrance to getting an MLB franchise here in this city. And the lack of a salary cap, is also going to hinder the success of a MLB franchise.

Personally, I think the NBA is more viable here, both, short term and long term. Again, this is saying that management is solid, and ownership is solid as well (not like the previous regime of the Grizzlies). I am hoping for a return of the NBA to Vancouver, but like many people, I am also realistic in that if it does happen, it probably won't happen within the next decade at least. And I can only see the NBA returning under the Aquilini's Canucks Sports and Entertainment (CSE). That's Vancouver's ticket back to the NBA.

[Whalleyboy]

I'm pretty sure plenty will travel out. Plenty already do for canuck, white caps, and cfl games. Heck alot of people i know also travel out for Vancouver giants games.

[LeftCoaster]

I would imagine that if an MLB team were to come to Vancouver, which it wont, it would be in Surrey. There isnt the room for a Baseball specific stadium anywhere in the CoV and locating somewhere near the highway in the burbs would probably put the team closer to the bulk of its fan base anyway. I could see it being somewhere down on the flats in by Scott Rd Station or something like that.

http://maps.google.ca/?ll=49.202289,...h&z=15&vpsrc=6

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

I would imagine that if an MLB team were to come to Vancouver, which it wont, it would be in Surrey.

So, you are a fortune teller? In that case, can you tell me whether in fifty-three years the NFL will expand to Vancouver?

[phesto]

Ok, let's assume that MLB actually has interest to expand (which it currently does not) or that there are teams considering relocation (there aren't really - of the teams facing issues, they center around their existing multi-purpose stadiums, and as with Florida, these issues get addressed with new stadiums).

Vancouver would be the 3rd smallest market in the league, ahead of two Midwest cities that have had teams for many years and have a loyal baseball following in Kansas City and Milwaukee. And while I have only been to one of those two cities, I can safely assume that neither offer the wide array of summer activities as Vancouver.

Add to this that MLB would want a baseball specific stadium at least planned, would make it extremely difficult.

Vancouver is a great city that is exhibiting strong growth, but I don't buy that we have some particular demographic feature that would make an MLB team work here. And yes, it would have to be just as popular in the Fraser Valley as in the City; we would need people coming from everywhere for all 81 home games.

Furthermore, while baseball may be increasingly popular in Asia, in my experience, the Asian population in Vancouver is largely disinterested in attending outdoor sports as evidenced by a disproportionate few Asians I see at Lions, Whitecaps and Canadians games. I realize this is a generalization on the entire Asian community, but I find it odd, especially considering I see a fairly accurate representation of Metro Vancouver's ethnic makeup at Canucks games (and previously, at Grizzlies games).

Surely if there was some pent up demand for baseball, wouldn't Nat Bailey be able to sell out more, instead of being half empty a lot of the time? Okay, I've heard the typical response "It's only single-A, it's not good baseball", but even the people who do go to the games don't appear to care about baseball, most are just there for the novelty of it.

I appreciate some of the arguments being made here guys, but let's be realistic about this. A feasible business case to bring MLB to Vancouver would be very difficult to create; not just because of Vancouver as a city, but from the MLB perspective, Vancouver isn't on anyone's radar, except for maybe exhibition games (and, fingers crossed, maybe a real series) at BC Place.

-----

The NBA is a league in a constant state of flux, and while Vancouver would still be one of the smaller market teams, we have a lot of wealthy people here (including CSE owners) and a growing market with a stadium ready to go. I think the probability of the NBA coming back is vastly greater than MLB ever coming here.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

So, you are a fortune teller? In that case, can you tell me whether in fifty-three years the NFL will expand to Vancouver?

Your response is rich coming from quite possibly the most prolific offender of one who phrases his own opinions as fact.

But no I am not a fortune teller however I am fairly certain the MLB will not expand to Vancouver any time in the reasonably foreseeable future.

May I be wrong? Surely... but I doubt it.

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

I would imagine that if an MLB team were to come to Vancouver, which it wont, it would be in Surrey. There isnt the room for a Baseball specific stadium anywhere in the CoV and locating somewhere near the highway in the burbs would probably put the team closer to the bulk of its fan base anyway. I could see it being somewhere down on the flats in by Scott Rd Station or something like that.

http://maps.google.ca/?ll=49.202289,...h&z=15&vpsrc=6

Exactly my comments and ideas posted before. It would be a HUGE revitalization of the area. Nice views of the Fraser River, a few bridges, mountains in the backgrounds. Good transit connections with skytrain, good road connections being a jump away from the new Highway 17 extension (SFPR), King George, and Scott Road.

And for those who complain it wouldn't be in Vancouver - it's really a 20 - 30 min skytrain ride to the stadium from downtown Vancouver.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Your response is rich coming from quite possibly the most prolific offender of one who phrases his own opinions as fact.

No need to get defensive. My point, which you have conceded, is that we cannot rule out MLB's coming to Vancouver eventually.

This is especially true considering that Metro Vancouver is projected to grow at an exceptional rate, has a rich baseball heritage, possesses first-rate baseball development programs, and is the primary source of Canadian players in Major League Baseball.

In twenty-five or thirty years, Vancouver (with a homegrown star) could be a superb place for MLB.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by phesto

Ok, let's assume that MLB actually has interest to expand (which it currently does not) or that there are teams considering relocation (there aren't really - of the teams facing issues, they center around their existing multi-purpose stadiums, and as with Florida, these issues get addressed with new stadiums).

Vancouver would be the 3rd smallest market in the league, ahead of two Midwest cities that have had teams for many years and have a loyal baseball following in Kansas City and Milwaukee. And while I have only been to one of those two cities, I can safely assume that neither offer the wide array of summer activities as Vancouver.

Add to this that MLB would want a baseball specific stadium at least planned, would make it extremely difficult.

Vancouver is a great city that is exhibiting strong growth, but I don't buy that we have some particular demographic feature that would make an MLB team work here. And yes, it would have to be just as popular in the Fraser Valley as in the City; we would need people coming from everywhere for all 81 home games.

Furthermore, while baseball may be increasingly popular in Asia, in my experience, the Asian population in Vancouver is largely disinterested in attending outdoor sports as evidenced by a disproportionate few Asians I see at Lions, Whitecaps and Canadians games. I realize this is a generalization on the entire Asian community, but I find it odd, especially considering I see a fairly accurate representation of Metro Vancouver's ethnic makeup at Canucks games (and previously, at Grizzlies games).

Surely if there was some pent up demand for baseball, wouldn't Nat Bailey be able to sell out more, instead of being half empty a lot of the time? Okay, I've heard the typical response "It's only single-A, it's not good baseball", but even the people who do go to the games don't appear to care about baseball, most are just there for the novelty of it.

I appreciate some of the arguments being made here guys, but let's be realistic about this. A feasible business case to bring MLB to Vancouver would be very difficult to create; not just because of Vancouver as a city, but from the MLB perspective, Vancouver isn't on anyone's radar, except for maybe exhibition games (and, fingers crossed, maybe a real series) at BC Place.

-----

The NBA is a league in a constant state of flux, and while Vancouver would still be one of the smaller market teams, we have a lot of wealthy people here (including CSE owners) and a growing market with a stadium ready to go. I think the probability of the NBA coming back is vastly greater than MLB ever coming here.

I think most immigrants from asia really don't care about canadian football (Lions), nor do they care much about the Whitecaps for that matter (MLS). Most asians have grown up with euopean football (the EPL, Barclay, etc), and those are the leagues that MLS 'Caps are competing with, in some ways. That's probably why you don't see many asians at those games. Now, with that being said, a lot of Asian born Canadians (asians who were born here, and not overseas), are supportive of their hometown clubs. And plus, Single A ball? C'mon. We all know the Canadians are to develop these players for the Major League Club, Blue Jays. Nobody really goes, because, well, either they aren't fans of single A baseball, or they just aren't fans.

I agree with you, however, that I don't see MLB coming to Vancouver in a long time. But perhaps over a period of time, Vancouver as a city itself, can make a case that it can support MLB here in this city. Adding another sporting franchise and event to this city in the Summer would be wonderful, in addition to all the other things that people can do in the city. I think you'd see a lot of Japanese people come out to games, as well as Asians coming out to something big like MLB. The Minor leagues? Probably not. I have a lot of friends who are fans of the NFL, but not the CFL game, because they see the CFL as a minor league, second rated league, where players who aren't good enough to make in the NFL, come to play (Casey Printers as an example, who left the Lions, to try out for the Chiefs - on practice roster).

The reason you see a lot of asians at Canucks and even in Grizzlies games (when they were still here), is because the Canucks - well - they ARE the event to attend when in town. Even people who don't know anything about hockey will come out, because of the atmosphere it generates, and the excitment of all the other 18,000 plus fans make when a goal is scored, or when a save is made. The Grizzlies, were a novelty, but when that novelty wore off over time, people still came, because it was a sporting event. And hey, who wouldn't want to support their hometown team? Those guys were REAL fans, who gave their support, money and time to the team. Unfortunately, the team left. But I'm hopeful that one day, the NBA will return, a lot sooner than receiving a MLB franchise for Van.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

No need to get defensive. My point, which you have conceded, is that we cannot rule out MLB's coming to Vancouver eventually.

This is especially true considering that Metro Vancouver is projected to grow at an exceptional rate, has a rich baseball heritage, possesses first-rate baseball development programs, and is the primary source of Canadian players in Major League Baseball.

In twenty-five or thirty years, Vancouver (with a homegrown star) could be a superb place for MLB.

I wouldn't rule out entirely MLB coming to Van. I just would say that it wouldn't be plausible or realistic until we have a committed owner. Who knows? Maybe the current owners of the Single A Canadians will want an MLB franchise and be willing to put up the cash for a brand new ballpark for Van. Can't ever rule out anything from happening. But I seriously doubt if MLB were to come, in my lifetime. NBA probably. MLB, unfortunately, probably not.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by phesto

Vancouver would be the 3rd smallest market in the league, ahead of two Midwest cities that have had teams for many years and have a loyal baseball following in Kansas City and Milwaukee.

Just for the record, in addition to Kansas City and Milwaukee, Vancouver has a larger metro population than Cincinnati, Cleavland, and Pittsburgh. Vancouver is also statistically tied with Denver and projected to overtake Baltimore in less than six years and St. Petersburg in less than seven years.

So, in terms of metro population at least, Vancouver is already (or inevitably) superior to 8 current cities that have MLB.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Just for the record, in addition to Kansas City and Milwaukee, Vancouver has a larger metro population than Cincinnati, Cleavland, and Pittsburgh. Vancouver is also statistically tied with Denver and projected to overtake Baltimore in less than six years and St. Petersburg in less than seven years.

So, in terms of metro population, Vancouver is already (or inevitably) superior to 8 current teams in MLB.

I don't think it's only based on population, though. I think it has a lot to do with whether there is a large enough population that would support pro baseball (MLB). Particularly for Vancouver, the more people, the more likely those people are fans of first, the Canucks, and then whatever other team after that.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by Vancity

Particularly for Vancouver, the more people, the more likely those people are fans of first, the Canucks, and then whatever other team after that.

First of all, the NHL season and MLB season do not compete with one another.

Secondly, if a MLB team was able to deliver what the Canucks have not been able to thus far, then there could be a day when the Canucks fall to number two. After all, the Canucks' popularity has had many peaks and valleys in its 40-year history, even without any seasonal competition.

Moreover, I suspect that much of the passion for the Canucks is more a tribal passion for city glory than it is for the game of ice hockey itself, and that as Vancouver's only real major league franchise, the Canucks serve as Vancouverites' sole vessel for prestige. But, in terms of revenue, media and fame, MLB is a bigger league than the NHL. And if a baseball franchise could succeed where the Canucks have hitherto failed and deliver the glory and prestige Vancouver craves, then the natural order of things could face a realignment. Indeed, this is precisely what happened in Toronto during the golden age of the Blue Jays, when that team won multiple penants and back-to-back World Series and the eyes of the world were upon them.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

No need to get defensive. My point, which you have conceded, is that we cannot rule out MLB's coming to Vancouver eventually.

That is the cheeziest debate tactic you could use. We cannot rule out the world ending in 2012, no matter how much evidence you have. Pure cheese.

Maybe 30 years in the future, we could model a park after AT&T Park in San Francisco on the rail yards in Gastown. This would quite possibly be the most scenic ballpark in the league.

[peterprinciple]

Originally Posted by logan5

That is the cheeziest debate tactic you could use. We cannot rule out the world ending in 2012, no matter how much evidence you have. Pure cheese.

Maybe 30 years in the future, we could model a park after AT&T Park in San Francisco on the rail yards in Gastown. This would quite possibly be the most scenic ballpark in the league.

How about building the MLB baseball stadium out in Surrey...they want a new stadium. I would buy tix to see MLB in Surrey.