Detroit & Michigan: Go-Town Transportation Lowdown

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by waltlantz

Gotta agree with LaHood here.

So they have a light rail line. That's not likely to make a huge dent in economic development in the city, Detroit has BIG TIME infrastructure problems both of concrete and spiritual. If The downtown was a big time magnet the same way the loop was or the city had the same kind of growth that Denver had, I could understand it.

But they can barely keep their buses running.

Way too early.

Almost every Detroit redevelopment project in the works worth talking about was along or near the proposed route of this line. The Detroit Whole Foods was a block from one of the proposed stops. The day before this announcement Starwood's Aloft brand announced that it would operate a new hotel at the David Whitney along the line. Nearly everything going on in Detroit worth talking about was in some way tied to this light rail line! I really don't see how that momentum continues. Detroit has a certain talent for killing its own potential. I wondered how the region would kill its own momentum this time around. I have my answer. Talk about shaking investor confidence...

I'm a native Detroiter. I saw this as probably the last chance for that city to start resembling a functioning city again while I am still in my productive years. I doubt I will ever see it.

And anyone who thinks that a BRT plan will actually come to fruition... Please don't hold your breath. That's how Detroit does these things. They give you some grand promise then once they get expectations to the highest level possible they say "wait, sorry we can't do that but we can give you this half assed backup plan". Then the final result is like half as good as the half-assed backup plan. Everything that isn't a freeway receives the half-assed backup plan's backup plan treatment.

[LMich]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I'm a native Detroiter. I saw this as probably the last chance for that city to start resembling a functioning city again while I am still in my productive years. I doubt I will ever see it.

Bingo. Same here. Of all of the bad things going on in the city, this was kind of the last hope at a city-wide transformation. Of all the good things going on in the city, this was singularly tied together all of them. To me, this was the thing that could finally get Detroit to focusing on one strong corridor, and building the hell out of it.

This would have given Detroit the opportunity to finally start developing very real and actually urban projects, as opposed to these apartment buildings, hotels, and office towers where in order to build them, you have to destroy a piece of the urban fabric to buildig a giant-assed parking garage to support it. Without this, that's not going to be possible.

BTW, someone help me with something. From preliminary comments, we've heard those working on the project say that it was the operating costs that killed the project. You mean to tell me in the five or six years this has been in study that this wasn't one of the very earliest things (operating costs) they consider? Give me a break. To draw even more to home how bogus the claim of the operating costs killing the project, how are they going to say the region can't afford the operating costs, and then go propose a system where the operating costs will be even higher? Do they think we're stupid enough not to see through that? How are they going to say operating costs for a single light rail line will be more than the operating costs of three BRT lines given that BRT is more expensive to operate (but with lower capital costs)? If this was really about operating costs, they'd have chosen the light rail.

I know exactly what happen. Snyder proposed the BRT crap a few weeks back. At the time everyone assumed it was just some fantasy he was throwing out there in a speech about Michigan transit in general. That it was a long-term goal, and nothing that'd replace or compete with the Woodward light rail line. BRT has always been in the plans for the other spoke roads, so no one thought anything of it. What has become clear as of last night is that this was a classic bait-and-switch, where Snyder's BRT plan was actually a replacement for the Woodward LRT. I wonder what in the world he promised Bing and LaHood, because the bogus excuse given (operating costs) doesn't cut it. Something doesn't smell right...

BTW, further evidence that this was a deal cut behind closed doors by these big three is that as recently as yesterday afternoon, the city council president was tweeting about the new board memebers for the LRT. These three completely blindsided the other regional leaders.

I'm honestly still dumbfounded and angry about this. Three men in a closed-door meeting threw out of the window five years of ridiculously intensive planning by all kind of partners in local, state and the federal government. There has been nothing in this region in recent decades more carefully crafted, and more intensely studied than this. Never has something been more generally agreed upon for its need by so many different sectors of the region, public and private. You had the mayor, the city council, most of the county execs, the philathropic community, the business community, etc...coalesce around something (if even varying ideas of how to pay for it). That simply doesn't happen in Detroit. And, all that comes to some fancy buses that, mark my words, won't even be coming?

What was the point of this? Who wins in this?

[fishrose]

Originally Posted by LMich

Excuse my French, but F%ck Detroit. Let her go bankrupt, already. Good luck with the BRT, too. Leave it to Metro Detroit to build up something to its literal peak for years, and then half-ass it or let if fail altogether. There are probably but a few metro areas in this world that can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory with such consistency and with such awe-inspiring skill.

Epicfail, Detroit; epic fail.

Excuse my French, but fuck you. There are hundreds of thousands of people in Detroit who need their city services more than anyone in the country. You're willing to turn your back on them and say "let the city go bankrupt" just because three politicians went over everyone's head? Watch your tone. Some of us live here, and some of us are working very hard to make Detroit a better place for everyone.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by fishrose

Excuse my French, but fuck you. There are hundreds of thousands of people in Detroit who need their city services more than anyone in the country. You're willing to turn your back on them and say "let the city go bankrupt" just because three politicians went over everyone's head? Watch your tone. Some of us live here, and some of us are working very hard to make Detroit a better place for everyone.

The city is already bankrupt with nothing on the horizon the suggest it will ever regain some of its lost prosperity. Might as well make it official. That's what happens when you let the business community dictate the development patterns and then allow them to leave the local community holding the bag when they decide to move on.

[fishrose]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

The city is already bankrupt with nothing on the horizon the suggest it will ever regain some of its lost prosperity. Might as well make it official. That's what happens when you let the business community dictate the development patterns and then allow them to leave the local community holding the bag when they decide to move on.

So the solution is just to give up and abandon the 700,000 (mostly impoverished) residents? Just throw away the massive progress that been made toward the revival of downtown over the past two years? Residential real estate in downtown and midtown is at 100% occupancy, and hundreds of new units are being built to meet the demand. Downtown office buildings are being purchased and renovated at a pace not seen since the mid-90s. The tax base starting to grow, and there is no reason to stop planning for the future just because there is a short-term budget shortfall.

[Rizzo]

Light rail is indeed a big commitment, and it's a promise of a fixed route system that gives developers an incentive to construct along the line. Don't take me literally, but BRT isn't something that you can take all that seriously. It's easy to cut a bus line, but far more difficult to shut down light rail.

This has been discussed at DYES and here, but posters are correct that BRT is strictly about mobility. I'm not convinced that it can stimulate more development along corridors, and any evidence used to say otherwise occurs in cities supplemented by other systems.

I also agree that bus improvements will assist the general population, except that it will facilitate movement to jobs outside the city. To be honest, I'd prefer maintain operation and reliability of lines to move Detroiters to job centers in the suburbs, but greatly enhance lines that would assist in more job creation downtown. Without the light rail plan, you aren't fostering new development, which creates more jobs downtown...... .... And btw this isn't reshuffling jobs either, LRT is an attractive feature of a city for new residents outside the state who may want to relocate.

[Centropolis]

Yeah, I mean I often compare St. Louis and Detroit because they have both lost similar percentages of population. It's hard to say what the city would be like without the light rail built in the 90s, but I think the two big anchors of the central corridor of the city - the west end and downtown - would be a lot quieter. These are now the areas seeing percentage gains in population in St. Louis City in the 2010 census, has brought money down the middle from the suburban favored quarter, and I think that the light rail was the glue that held all of the other important factors together. The light rail breached the psychological invisible wall at the city limits, even if just a little...a bus can't do that for a city like St. Louis or Detroit where there's that kind of heavy duty urban/suburban break.

[fishrose]

Originally Posted by Hayward

Light rail is indeed a big commitment, and it's a promise of a fixed route system that gives developers an incentive to construct along the line. Don't take me literally, but BRT isn't something that you can take all that seriously. It's easy to cut a bus line, but far more difficult to shut down light rail.

Bang. This is why they did this. Rick Snyder has no intention of supporting any comprehensive rapid transit system in SE Michigan. The BRT system is only being "proposed" so that it will be easier for his emergency financial manager to eliminate.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by fishrose

So the solution is just to give up and abandon the 700,000 (mostly impoverished) residents? Just throw away the massive progress that been made toward the revival of downtown over the past two years? Residential real estate in downtown and midtown is at 100% occupancy, and hundreds of new units are being built to meet the demand. Downtown office buildings are being purchased and renovated at a pace not seen since the mid-90s. The tax base starting to grow, and there is no reason to stop planning for the future just because there is a short-term budget shortfall.

If the city bankrupts someone will still have to pay for that. But Detroit's legacy burdens will be more fairly shouldered by the region.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by LMich

Excuse my French, but F%ck Detroit.

Originally Posted by fishrose

Excuse my French, but fuck you.

No no guys. Excuse my English but for real, you have no idea, and that English term is far too soft here anyway. I can tell what the French dogs would do in such a case, they'd never give up, be putting such a bad pressure upon those responsible for the virtual waste that the guys would poop their pants and quickly find a solution to eventually implement the project. You don't believe me? We've beheaded a king over here. And his wife too Yes, and many of their privileged friends. They were all just too awkward and unfair to rule anything. So I guess you guys should think about doing the same sometimes. Not always, it'd be wrong but in a case such as this, it's worth getting real badly upset.

[fishrose]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

If the city bankrupts someone will still have to pay for that. But Detroit's legacy burdens will be more fairly shouldered by the region.

The suburbs would do absolutely everything within their power to avoid helping Detroit. If you're a native of the Detroit area, you know that. Bankruptcy is not the answer.

[fishrose]

Originally Posted by mousquet

No no guys. Excuse my English but for real, you have no idea, and that English term is far too soft here anyway. I can tell what the French dogs would do in such a case, they'd never give up, be putting such a bad pressure upon those responsible for the virtual waste that the guys would poop their pants and quickly find a solution to eventually implement the project. You don't believe me? We've beheaded a king over here. And his wife too Yes, and many of their privileged friends. They were all just too awkward and unfair to rule anything. So I guess you guys should think about doing the same sometimes. Not always, it'd be wrong but in a case such as this, it's worth getting real badly upset.

I think a lot could be achieved if an angry, violent mob showed up at Dave Bing's front door.

[J. Will]

I wonder if the replacement will even be proper BRT with physically-separated lanes and proper stations, or if they will just put up overhead signs in the outside lanes telling drivers they are not to use those lanes? If it's the latter, it would be no different than "bus lanes" found on countless streets in any city.

[waltlantz]

Originally Posted by Hayward

Light rail is indeed a big commitment, and it's a promise of a fixed route system that gives developers an incentive to construct along the line. Don't take me literally, but BRT isn't something that you can take all that seriously. It's easy to cut a bus line, but far more difficult to shut down light rail.

This has been discussed at DYES and here, but posters are correct that BRT is strictly about mobility. I'm not convinced that it can stimulate more development along corridors, and any evidence used to say otherwise occurs in cities supplemented by other systems.

I also agree that bus improvements will assist the general population, except that it will facilitate movement to jobs outside the city. To be honest, I'd prefer maintain operation and reliability of lines to move Detroiters to job centers in the suburbs, but greatly enhance lines that would assist in more job creation downtown. Without the light rail plan, you aren't fostering new development, which creates more jobs downtown...... .... And btw this isn't reshuffling jobs either, LRT is an attractive feature of a city for new residents outside the state who may want to relocate.

I don't think you can just write off BRT when you see some of the great examples they had in South America.

While I still believe that there are some other larger structural problems (in terms of both transit and in general) that the city needs to focus on I think I am beginning to understand the dissapointment here.

LMich makes a good point, No way head honchos JUST NOW figured that cost would be a big problem. Seems REAL FISHY. Something is behind that.

What's more you JUST HAD the Metro agree to create a regional transport body, unprecidented. With the scraping of this light rail line, I wonder how suburban support will stick for that new body.

Real tough break there, guys.

[J. Will]

If they build a proper BRT system with physically-separated lanes like VIVA is currently building in Toronto and it's northern suburbs it could be useful:

http://www.vivanext.com/gallery_rapidways

http://www.vivanext.com/rapidways

[mhays]

A basic increase in bus service can do a lot. Waits might be too long and buses might not be enjoyable, but they can certainly contribute to better mode splits, which can get a hell of a lot better regardless of rail.

The garage thing is mystifying. At current transit levels, I don't get why parking has to be onsite 1:1 in an urban area. Surely office workers can walk a few blocks...parking lots on the Downtown/whatever periphery aren't ideal but if they exist, why not use them. Even now some can take buses or carpool, and some might live within walking distance. In residential areas, while anything other than low-income housing can justify building some parking, much of it can be handled by the street.

From my perspective, rail itself is/was a route to improving Detroit. There are other routes. The more important question is whether something like bus improvements will be implemented, whether they're expresses, BRT, or whatever.

[fishrose]

Originally Posted by mhays

A basic increase in bus service can do a lot. Waits might be too long and buses might not be enjoyable, but they can certainly contribute to better mode splits, which can get a hell of a lot better regardless of rail.

The garage thing is mystifying. At current transit levels, I don't get why parking has to be onsite 1:1 in an urban area. Surely office workers can walk a few blocks...parking lots on the Downtown/whatever periphery aren't ideal but if they exist, why not use them. Even now some can take buses or carpool, and some might live within walking distance. In residential areas, while anything other than low-income housing can justify building some parking, much of it can be handled by the street.

From my perspective, rail itself is/was a route to improving Detroit. There are other routes. The more important question is whether something like bus improvements will be implemented, whether they're expresses, BRT, or whatever.

Rail does more than increase mobility. That's all BRT will do, and I'm incredibly skeptical as to whether BRT will even be implemented at any point.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by fishrose

The suburbs would do absolutely everything within their power to avoid helping Detroit. If you're a native of the Detroit area, you know that. Bankruptcy is not the answer.

They don't have the power to avoid it. Maybe Detroit should have played this card a long time ago. The ability to sink the ship is a powerful thing. Detroit's ace is that it has the power to bring the whole ship down. It may get messy, but I think it's well past time that the whole region gets a head check.

[Rizzo]

Originally Posted by waltlantz

I don't think you can just write off BRT when you see some of the great examples they had in South America.

While I still believe that there are some other larger structural problems (in terms of both transit and in general) that the city needs to focus on I think I am beginning to understand the dissapointment here.

LMich makes a good point, No way head honchos JUST NOW figured that cost would be a big problem. Seems REAL FISHY. Something is behind that.

What's more you JUST HAD the Metro agree to create a regional transport body, unprecidented. With the scraping of this light rail line, I wonder how suburban support will stick for that new body.

Real tough break there, guys.

I actually studied BRT systems in South America in the context of SE Michigan. It's deja vu seeing this topic come up lol. Keep in mind, different culture and mindsets when it comes to buses in other countries. Plus we are talking apples and oranges in relationship to the physical and spatial characteristics of these cities.

I did point out that BRT could do well as far as getting people from one place to another. If it gets implemented, it will be effective. I just don't believe it can create the type of density and growth you would see with LRT.

But every city is different. We can look at case studies from Portland to Minneapolis, but that doesn't mean you'll see the same benefits.

As others have pointed out, I think it's a huge shame that we spent all this money, time, and discussion on planning on a system that was at the very least green lighted to begin construction.... only to fall apart in a matter of days. When you step back and look at it, the planning process was a sunk cost justifying this expensive investment....if you even want to consider it expensive.

[uaarkson]

So, what next? Is there a chance this project could be revived in the future?