Trillium Line Upgrades & Extension (Stage 2) [Greenboro to Airport/Limebank] | U/C

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Had doubling Walkley been part of the initial RFP, the cost would probably have been fairly close to that estimate. Maybe a bit more, $50 million. Today with the insane inflationary pressures on transit projects, it would probably be closer to $100 million.

Don't forget that Stage 2 was already under a lot of inflationary pressure.
The only reason the South extension was kept "on-budget" was due to the aforementioned "unethical" discretion by staff.

Bowesville is pretty far from Limebank, jut barely within the current urban boundary. It could take 30+ years before anything is built within walking distance. That's well within good candidacy for a future infill (don't get me started on Jasmine, which would have been far more useful, but admittedly more expensive).

The alternatives at the time would have been too move the massive park and ride to Limebank (awful idea) or simply have no park and ride which would undermine the entire point of the extension.

I imagine this thread is conversation is about to go off the rails, so I'll just leave it at: you can't just delete one station and replace it with a completely new design for another station as an addendum.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

My friend has been recently raising a stink with OC Transpo and his councilor about new bus routes.

He comes from the north-east side of Bank and Walkley, on a neighbourhood collector bus, which ends at Billings Bridge per the updated route maps.

If the bus continued 800m further on Heron, he could loop into Line 2 and his commute would be 1/2 hour (granted, there's no easy bus turnaround here)

The Councillor and OC Transpo has recommended he stay on his bus to billings, sit for the short break at the end of the route, continue on the same route down the transitway to Hurdman, and catch Line 1, and from line one circle downtown, past Bayview, and onwards to Tunneys. A total of a 1 hour commute. Driving his car is 15 minutes. Hmmm...

If he's on the North-East side of Bank and Walkley... Why couldn't he make the connection to Line 2 at Walkley?

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The alternatives at the time would have been too move the massive park and ride to Limebank (awful idea) or simply have no park and ride which would undermine the entire point of the extension.

I imagine this thread is conversation is about to go off the rails, so I'll just leave it at: you can't just delete one station and replace it with a completely new design for another station as an addendum.

I agree a park and ride at Limebank would not have been good from a future urban planning perpective. They could have expanded the park and ride at Leitrim, which is only 3 to 5 minutes futher by car.

I think we'll need to agree to disagree on all this.

[DTcrawler]

It's still insane to me that 8 min frequency was promised after the 2015 upgrades and it was only discovered after the work was done that it wasn't feasible. How does that happen in a supposedly developed country with "professional" engineers?

What's even more insane is that after the 2015 blunder, you'd expect that at the very least, the next multi-year closure, costing hundreds of millions of dollars would definitely rectify the issue, right? Wrong.

As much as we can pull out every which excuse as to why OCT and/or the City does or doesn't do this, that & the other, we're well past the point where any rational person can look at the situation as a whole and have any ounce of faith left in the decision-makers.

The new Lines 2 & 4 will certainly be an upgrade over the current R2 situation. And perhaps a potential silver lining of the years of delays on the project is that many casual riders may forget the upgraded line offers the same mediocre 12 min frequency as it did in 2020. For people who follow transit closely, it will be hard to use the system without constantly thinking of what could've been, as is usually the case when taking OC Transpo.

[ponyboycurtis]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

To add to this, 12 minutes is not the worse thing in the World. Better or simmilar to most U.S. urban rail systems (though I'm tired of "at least we're better tha the U.S. mantra).

The constant and steady reliabilty is what makes Line 2 good (if they keep it consistent as it was before the shut down and they can we don't get another years long shut down). Urban buses, and we've seen that with R2 in particular, don't have anywhere near this level of reliability. We can say that bus frequencies are 15, 10, 5 minutes on paper, but that's never the case for the busiest urban routes.

I'm just disapointed that $600+ million coucln't even shave a couple minutes off the frequency. I think that's a fair criticism of the project. Finding $20-$30 million on a $600+ million project to double Walkley would not have been that difficult.

The real tragedy of Walkley is that a second platform/entrance will have to be built. Unless I am horribly mistaken there is no room to place a track on the backside. It should have been an island platform but it's not. Colossal waste of money and time. Someone please tell me I'm wrong.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I mean what you're suggesting is effectively that increasing headways on Line 2 to 15 minutes would actually be better for connecting service than cutting them to 10 or 8 minutes.
Be careful what you wish for?

Do you not think that I have already thought of the advantages of going to 15 minute frequency to allow for proper timed transfers? But of course, that would be really unacceptable to the public, that a huge investment would produce less frequent service. And then capacity constraints that would be introduced. I understand all of this.

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I don't know if it's sunk in for you yet that the service levels on Line 2 aren't going to be changing any time soon either.
Yes, that's obviously the alternative. If even you can't be bother to advocate for it, why would anyone else?

As a potential rider, you're offering me even less than what OC Transpo can and that's really saying something here.

Of course, I understand that service frequency on Line 2 is locked into the current design. I think everybody understands this limitation.

But don't say I don't advocate for something better. I have spoken on this subject on three occasions at public meetings. On the last occasion, OC management acknowledged the problem. I don't care if the problem is resolved on the rail side or the bus side. Just resolve the problem, so that riders don't face 28 minute wait times to transfer to the local bus.

At one meeting, I followed up, when the rail rep passed the issue to the bus side. When I followed up, the bus rep admitted that the budget did not allow for a solution. This was before Phase 2 was approved by City Council, so the plan was not yet written in stone.

When no solution is offered, this is when I get disturbed.

[lrt's friend]

Just announced on CTV News that Line 2 will not open this spring, and 'may' not be ready for the September school year.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

If he's on the North-East side of Bank and Walkley... Why couldn't he make the connection to Line 2 at Walkley?

North-east of Bank and Walkley does not necessarily mean within reasonable walking distance of Walkley Station.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Do you not think that I have already thought of the advantages of going to 15 minute frequency to allow for proper timed transfers? But of course, that would be really unacceptable to the public, that a huge investment would produce less frequent service. And then capacity constraints that would be introduced. I understand all of this.

Of course, I understand that service frequency on Line 2 is locked into the current design. I think everybody understands this limitation.

But don't say I don't advocate for something better. I have spoken on this subject on three occasions at public meetings. On the last occasion, OC management acknowledged the problem. I don't care if the problem is resolved on the rail side or the bus side. Just resolve the problem, so that riders don't face 28 minute wait times to transfer to the local bus.

At one meeting, I followed up, when the rail rep passed the issue to the bus side. When I followed up, the bus rep admitted that the budget did not allow for a solution. This was before Phase 2 was approved by City Council, so the plan was not yet written in stone.

When no solution is offered, this is when I get disturbed.

You don't care whether the solution is on the rail or bus side, but you will outright dismiss the possibility of improving bus service while writing paragraphs about why rail is the real problem.

As yet another reminder: 10 minute headways on Line 2 would still leave people with up to 20+ minute wait times on bus routes that run every 30 minutes.
Improving bus service is literally the only real solution to the problem.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

North-east of Bank and Walkley does not necessarily mean within reasonable walking distance of Walkley Station.

If you're closer to the 41 than the 44 then you aren't North-East of Bank and Walkley—you're South-East of Bank and Heron.
Maybe that's the case, but the description is confusing.

[On Edge]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Just announced on CTV News that Line 2 will not open this spring, and 'may' not be ready for the September school year.

Where there any reasons given for even more delay? They are rolling a lot of trains along the line daily now and it is hard to imagine what would still be holding things up.

[rocketphish]

Trillium Line operators nearly trained, but opening remains vague
'We haven't had any unexpected, large problems yet,' says operations manager

Elyse Skura · CBC News
Posted: May 16, 2024 4:04 PM EDT | Last Updated: 4 hours ago



OC Transpo staff who invited media to take a look at the newly extended north-south rail line suggested a best-case scenario puts its launch date in August or September.

But if you're looking for a firm opening, don't hold your breath.

The Trillium Line is now two years behind schedule.

While transit advocates and councillors have long said they don't want a repeat of the problematic Confederation Line launch, their patience has been wearing thin.

They asked for some sort of commitment to a deadline in February, but as of Thursday, the director of rail construction said staff plan to maintain a vagueness around the opening date.

"I always just measure based on the performance of the system. As of today, because we haven't run 18 hours a day, I can't give you an educated assessment of how reliable the system is," Michael Morgan told reporters.

"We want to make sure we take our time and put the system into service when it's been proven and determined that it's reliable."

When pressed, Morgan said the earliest possible opening would be six to ten weeks after all operators finish their 150 hours of mandatory training — which remains about a month away.

OC Transpo has been training operators for months, with many recruited from among an existing pool of bus drivers.

Because trains used on this line are diesel, there's no overlap between those operating the east-west Confederation Line and those who will work on this new extension.

Trillium operators also need to be up-to-speed on both the new Stadler FLIRT trains and the legacy Alstom LINT trains, which were used on the old O-Train line.

Derek Moran, the manager of the rail operations program, is content with how things are progressing.

"We haven't had any unexpected, large problems yet. I don't think we will," he said. "These vehicles are tried and true in other properties and we've been very happy with their performance."

That doesn't mean there have not been challenges on the line, chief among them the fact that much of the existing rail was single track.

With trains running in both directions sharing the rails, there's a limit to how often they can run.

If a train has an emergency, there's no way to bypass it.

"You have to be mindful that it's not all about the performance of the trains and the infrastructure, but sometimes the public as well," he said. "If somebody unfortunately has a medical event at a station, that's something that we have to recover from as quickly as possible while making sure that they get the care that they need."

The new Stadler vehicles are twice the length of the older trains, which Morgan said will address a complaint Carleton University students had about the older Alstom model.

"They've got double the number of doors, which is very important for boarding and off-boarding when we arrive at a station," said Morgan.

This should help the line run trains every 12 minutes, although trains have not yet met that milestone. Passengers going to the airport will need to get off at South Keys station and switch to the half-length trains.

Ridership projections suggest that size will be enough to accommodate everyone, and the platform at the Uplands and Airport stations is only long enough for those trains.

Members of the light-rail subcommittee will get an update on the line's progress at the end of the month.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...ague-1.7206404

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by On Edge

Where there any reasons given for even more delay? They are rolling a lot of trains along the line daily now and it is hard to imagine what would still be holding things up.

The following should answer your question, from the above news story.

That doesn't mean there have not been challenges on the line, chief among them the fact that much of the existing rail was single track.

With trains running in both directions sharing the rails, there's a limit to how often they can run.

.
.

This should help the line run trains every 12 minutes, although trains have not yet met that milestone

The bolded part confirms what I suspected for months.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

As yet another reminder: 10 minute headways on Line 2 would still leave people with up to 20+ minute wait times on bus routes that run every 30 minutes.
Improving bus service is literally the only real solution to the problem.

I am not sure why you need to make this point. Not every transit route will have the same frequency. What is needed is predictability to make good transfers. It is much easier to predict a good transfer with a 10 minute train and a 30 minute bus than a 12 minute train and a 30 minute bus. Yes, the same can be accomplished with a 12 minute train and a 24 minute bus. Is a 24 minute bus in the cards? That is the question. We will see.

The latter scenario was exactly what was mentioned with the OC official. As I said, we will see.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The following should answer your question, from the above news story.



The bolded part confirms what I suspected for months.

I disagree. The article seems to indicate personnel and hiring is the blocker, not technical.

Also the line had 12 minute frequency before. There's only one additional station on a single track section versus before, and there were massive dwell times at Greenboro that would easily allow for that time to be used at Walkley.

Do i believe the riding line 2 will involve long pauses for passing trains like it did before, yes despite the promise of smoother operations. Will it be able to maintain a 12 minute frequency, also yes.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I am not sure why you need to make this point. Not every transit route will have the same frequency. What is needed is predictability to make good transfers. It is much easier to predict a good transfer with a 10 minute train and a 30 minute bus than a 12 minute train and a 30 minute bus. Yes, the same can be accomplished with a 12 minute train and a 24 minute bus. Is a 24 minute bus in the cards? That is the question. We will see.

The latter scenario was exactly what was mentioned with the OC official. As I said, we will see.

I know OC Transpo treats 30 minutes as some sort of holy commandment from on high, but I really do expect them to do 24 minutes for some routes like the 93, which will have no connection to any other bus and only go to Leitrim.

Although maybe I should assume 48 minutes, given OC Transpo

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by DTcrawler

It's still insane to me that 8 min frequency was promised after the 2015 upgrades and it was only discovered after the work was done that it wasn't feasible. How does that happen in a supposedly developed country with "professional" engineers?

What's even more insane is that after the 2015 blunder, you'd expect that at the very least, the next multi-year closure, costing hundreds of millions of dollars would definitely rectify the issue, right? Wrong.

As much as we can pull out every which excuse as to why OCT and/or the City does or doesn't do this, that & the other, we're well past the point where any rational person can look at the situation as a whole and have any ounce of faith left in the decision-makers.

The new Lines 2 & 4 will certainly be an upgrade over the current R2 situation. And perhaps a potential silver lining of the years of delays on the project is that many casual riders may forget the upgraded line offers the same mediocre 12 min frequency as it did in 2020. For people who follow transit closely, it will be hard to use the system without constantly thinking of what could've been, as is usually the case when taking OC Transpo.

Agreed. Big difference between 8 minutes and 12 minutes. If it had reduced to 10 minutes with that 2015 upgrade, it would be a little more understandable.

As for your silver lining, my fear is that people will expect high frequencies like we have on Line 1 and be greatly disapointed by the 12 minutes, forgetting what it was before (or in many cases, previous riders are no longer customers and new riders never rode the train before ex. Carelton will have an entirely new set of students from 4 years ago).

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

The real tragedy of Walkley is that a second platform/entrance will have to be built. Unless I am horribly mistaken there is no room to place a track on the backside. It should have been an island platform but it's not. Colossal waste of money and time. Someone please tell me I'm wrong.

What's needed is rebuilding the Walkley overpass to widen the RoW below it and allow double tracks, along with adding a second platfrom to Wakley. Estimates for that we're in the $20 million mark 5+ years ago. Since then, they've rehab the existing overpass, delaying the upgrade by many more years.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Just announced on CTV News that Line 2 will not open this spring, and 'may' not be ready for the September school year.

Won't suprise me if it's not ready for yet another start of a school year. Heck, wouldn't suprise me if we get anotehr full school year with no service.