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  #21  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2006, 6:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RAlossi
I'm not too familiar with the way this works, but don't students who live in CA more than a year become CA residents in the eyes of schools?
I believe they become in-state residents but don't qualify for in-state tuition nor in-state status for UC med schools, grad schools etc..
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  #22  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2006, 7:57 PM
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I wonder how UCLA, UCSF, and UCSD compare to ivies if one considers much of the eastern seaboard a single state. California is the size of an entire region, it all just happens to be governed by one bureaucracy.

Regardless, UC grad programs churn out some of the brightest researchers in the world because they draw talent from all over the world. And it's not just about talent, it's also about cultivation - faculty have a great deal to do with the end product. And UC investigators have been rivaling ivy researchers in quality and productivity for years (partly because many are former ivy faculty themselves). In any case, grad level study (research, fellowships, etc) is where a school's standings really matters. I don't really pay heed to such ranking methodologies, even if they favor UC schools.

btw, UC grad schools (PhD) get most of their funding from the government. Their stipends are not affected by residency status.

Last edited by edluva; Sep 24, 2006 at 8:05 PM.
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  #23  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2006, 10:12 PM
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UCLA, UCB, and Stanford would be more equivalent to the ivies than UCSF and UCSD. And we can throw in Caltech which in certain ways, may be in a league of it's own in comparison to the other California school, although it would be more appropriate to compare it to MIT.
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  #24  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2006, 1:33 AM
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UCSF can easily hang with Johns Hopkins where grad programs are concerned.
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  #25  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2006, 1:49 AM
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^I don't know if I agree with that. I can think of multiple departments where Hopkins is far more advanced and influential than UCSF. Both Hopkins and Harvard/Brigham/MGH are a solid cut above UCSF. Hopkins is stronger than UCSF in clinical, transitional and basic research. Only Brigham/Harvard can compete with Hopkins.
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  #26  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2006, 4:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Imperial Teen
^I don't know if I agree with that. I can think of multiple departments where Hopkins is far more advanced and influential than UCSF. Both Hopkins and Harvard/Brigham/MGH are a solid cut above UCSF. Hopkins is stronger than UCSF in clinical, transitional and basic research. Only Brigham/Harvard can compete with Hopkins.

I didn't know I was an entire research campus! lol jk
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  #27  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2006, 4:33 AM
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Well, actually--you didn't know you were a women's and children's hospital...
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  #28  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2006, 4:50 AM
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^ Yeah, I've heard of it before, just never knew much about it. *shrugs*
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  #29  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2006, 5:11 AM
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Alas, I know it (and adjacent Mass General) only too well.
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  #30  
Old Posted Sep 25, 2006, 8:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Imperial Teen
^I don't know if I agree with that. I can think of multiple departments where Hopkins is far more advanced and influential than UCSF. Both Hopkins and Harvard/Brigham/MGH are a solid cut above UCSF. Hopkins is stronger than UCSF in clinical, transitional and basic research. Only Brigham/Harvard can compete with Hopkins.
Clinical perhaps, but who cares about clinical really? Heck, USC is decent at clinical if we want to look there. MD Anderson is huge. CRO's in Bulgaria, etc. Hand me enough money and I'll design an elucidative, JAMA-caliber multicentered RCT for a school of your choosing, and with great internal validity. I strongly disagree about basic/translational though. If anything it's the other way around - UCSF's Biochemistry, Molecular Biology, Pharmacology, and Cell bio departments are probably more highly regarded than are John Hopkins'. As far as translational, UCSF is a clear cut above JH, or pretty much any other in many programs. It's pharmaceutics and pharm/tox departments are unsurpassable. For example, those departments pretty much defined modern clinical PK/PD as we know it. UCSF all but created the study of pharmacogenomics, and continues to lead it. Then you get the interdepartmental collaborations like PSPG and QB3. There are so many top-tier basic research programs at UCSF that one can't possibly make such a generalization that one is a "cut above" another. Even the NIH grants between JH and UCSF are neck and neck, whether in terms of fellowships, R&D contracts, or research grants. The only area UCSF clearly lags Johns Hopkins is in its offerings - UCSF isn't the all-encompassing university JH is, since it's strictly health/life-sci. Where JH really shines is anything relating to health policy/economics. That's where it starts playing with Harvard.

As far as clinical med is concerned, I'd think you'd have to start looking by subspecialty, but I'll defer to your expertise on that.

I can't speak for Harvard/MGH as I don't know as much about it, but I've heard a lot about their programs. I figure though, that given what I do know about how UCSF's and JH's programs compare, it can't be *that* much better. I guess I just don't buy into the culture and hype associated with eastern institutions as much as others.

Last edited by edluva; Sep 25, 2006 at 8:59 AM.
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  #31  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2006, 4:24 AM
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Originally Posted by edluva
Clinical perhaps, but who cares about clinical really? Heck, USC is decent at clinical if we want to look there. MD Anderson is huge. CRO's in Bulgaria, etc. Hand me enough money and I'll design an elucidative, JAMA-caliber multicentered RCT for a school of your choosing, and with great internal validity. I strongly disagree about basic/translational though. If anything it's the other way around - UCSF's Biochemistry, Molecular Biology, Pharmacology, and Cell bio departments are probably more highly regarded than are John Hopkins'. As far as translational, UCSF is a clear cut above JH, or pretty much any other in many programs. It's pharmaceutics and pharm/tox departments are unsurpassable. For example, those departments pretty much defined modern clinical PK/PD as we know it. UCSF all but created the study of pharmacogenomics, and continues to lead it. Then you get the interdepartmental collaborations like PSPG and QB3. There are so many top-tier basic research programs at UCSF that one can't possibly make such a generalization that one is a "cut above" another. Even the NIH grants between JH and UCSF are neck and neck, whether in terms of fellowships, R&D contracts, or research grants. The only area UCSF clearly lags Johns Hopkins is in its offerings - UCSF isn't the all-encompassing university JH is, since it's strictly health/life-sci. Where JH really shines is anything relating to health policy/economics. That's where it starts playing with Harvard.

As far as clinical med is concerned, I'd think you'd have to start looking by subspecialty, but I'll defer to your expertise on that.

I can't speak for Harvard/MGH as I don't know as much about it, but I've heard a lot about their programs. I figure though, that given what I do know about how UCSF's and JH's programs compare, it can't be *that* much better. I guess I just don't buy into the culture and hype associated with eastern institutions as much as others.
I can't speak with any expertise on molecular biology, cell biology, biochem depts. So I absolutely believe that UCSF is as outstanding as any in the world.

I'd like to think I don't buy into the "east coast = good, west coast = not as good" mentality, but I think I must kind of do as I look at my colleagues who grew up in So Cal and went to Cal tech with a MD/PhD from UCLA in not the same light as the ones who grew up round here and went to Princeton and got an MD/PhD from HMS. The latter have a much brighter glow to them in my eyes.

But back to Brigham. Brigham competely overmatches UCSF, and that's quite impressive that a single man can out compete a university of 1000s of students, faculty and staff.
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  #32  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2006, 4:45 AM
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Originally Posted by bobcat
. LA does lag other cities a bit in terms of performing arts, but that gap is sure to narrow in the coming years. Still though, it does take time for the cultural reputation of a city like LA to reflect reality--at least 10 years I'd guess, if not moreso.

.
What do you mean, LA lags in performing arts? IF you look at the listings in aany thursday edition of the LA times, you will usually see over 100 and usually over 120 plays being performed in the city on any one week. actually the number of productions in the LA area out numbers the number of productions anywhere in the USA, including New York, although the productions in NYC are more elaborate as a rule and may play for years as opposed to LA productions which usually play for weeks or months. None the less most LA productions feature professional actors with their union cards.

There are three opera companies and new symphony hallls/performing arts centers have been built in downtown and Orange county recently. I am told there are more than 30 symphonic groups in the area including the prestigeous LA Phil, but also including the Hollywood bowl symphony, Pasadena symphony, glendale symph, Santa Monica Symphonia, LA chamber Orch, Orch Pacifica, etc. etc. USC, UCLA, and Cal tech have performing schedules. There are multiple performing arts centers all over the area including LOng Beach, Glendale, Pasadena, the Hollywood Bowl, etc. We are a little weak in homegrown classical ballet, but all the visiting companies come regularly, and as for non classical music, there are hundreds of clubs for live performance including most big names, In the US only New York can be said to have a more vital performing arts scene than LA.

The reason many don't ralize this is that our venues tend to be scattered across the metropolis, rather then located in a few areas. If you don't believe be, check out the Thursday calender section in the LA Times, or check out the LA weekly.

And that doesn't even count the tapings of TV shows open to the public,
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  #33  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2006, 5:00 AM
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^I'm fully aware of what LA has to offer, but I'm comparing LA to cities like NYC and London, which I consider to be its peers. Just take opera as an example. The Metropolitan Opera has a budget of over $200 million and presents upwards of 30 different operas a season. LA Opera, while respectable, has a budget this year in the range of $50-55 million and presenting 8 operas. That's actually comparable to Chicago and San Francisco, but as far as I'm concerned LA Opera should be aiming much higher.

Contrast that with the visual arts, where LA does rival NYC. There are actually a lot of artists who believe LA is #1 for contemporary art.
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  #34  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2006, 5:06 AM
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Where does the MO get its funds? Donations?

LA need more philanthropy. So many rich people live here.
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  #35  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2006, 5:25 AM
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^Yes, other, more established, cities like NYC, SF, CHI, etc have a greater tradition of philanthropy than LA does. Also, cities which have an established tradition in the arts tend to draw many tourists who make up a significant portion of the audience at cultural venues. I mean, it seems like everyone who visits NYC goes to a museum, play, or concert, whereas that's not the case in LA, although that's begun to change in recent years. Of course, that's one of Eli Broad's major goals--to increase the amount of cultural tourism to the area.
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  #36  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2006, 5:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Imperial Teen
I'd like to think I don't buy into the "east coast = good, west coast = not as good" mentality, but I think I must kind of do as I look at my colleagues who grew up in So Cal and went to Cal tech with a MD/PhD from UCLA in not the same light as the ones who grew up round here and went to Princeton and got an MD/PhD from HMS. The latter have a much brighter glow to them in my eyes.
Snob!

But I do think you're pointing out a problem that is partly related to some of the comments in the "Cover Story: Next LA" thread.

I remember reading an article several yrs ago written by a former director of the Metropolitan Museum in NY about his trip to CA. He visited LA & SF, & even though the main museum he toured in SF isn't all that good (esp compared with the place where he worked), or certainly no better than the museums he visited in LA, he nonetheless described the place in SF in more positive terms, while sounding less enthusiastic about or impressed by what he saw in LA.

I think ppl are more likely to discount the importance of things, even in their own backyard, if they associate them as being part of an armpit setting, one that's full of dives & deadzones. Consequently, even though I believe LA is far better than, for example, San Diego in cultural & social matters, a lot of ppl (even at SSP) still have more positive impressions of SD, & prob things connected with it, than LA. And if that's true of SD compared with LA, then it would be even truer of SF compared with LA, since snobs have long equated SF as being the center of culture on the West Coast.
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  #37  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2006, 6:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Imperial Teen
I can't speak with any expertise on molecular biology, cell biology, biochem depts. So I absolutely believe that UCSF is as outstanding as any in the world.

I'd like to think I don't buy into the "east coast = good, west coast = not as good" mentality, but I think I must kind of do as I look at my colleagues who grew up in So Cal and went to Cal tech with a MD/PhD from UCLA in not the same light as the ones who grew up round here and went to Princeton and got an MD/PhD from HMS. The latter have a much brighter glow to them in my eyes.
I guess there's 2 ways to look at it. One is where the results speak for themselves. The other is by the "glow" in the eyes of a given investigator. No but seriously, I know that glow, though I'm not convinced it actually yields results. It could very well be the product of one's association with prestige, and nothing more. I look at it this way... if west coast institutions can compete with eastern counterparts for sought-after funding, nobels, fellows, patents, and more, whether or not they do it in style doesn't change the outcome. If michael bishop can characterize a prion before anyone else does, it shouldn't matter how magically his eyes sparkle.

The thing is, with mol bio, cell bio, biochem, pharma, toxicology, and med chem taken care of, I can't see anywhere else JH's case for dominating basic and translational sciences can be made. These are pretty much all the big topics. Sure, JH gets ranked higher in medicine, but by what, one notch? two? three? (if rankings matter that is). Either way, I just get the feeling most of the purported difference is imaginary. Not to be too boring about it of course.

Last edited by edluva; Sep 26, 2006 at 6:43 AM.
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  #38  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2006, 7:14 AM
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^ Whatever is exotic will appeal to the glow in people's eyes.

When I was in Chicago, I bumped into a guy at a bar who was moving to LA in a couple of weeks. As he bumped into people he knew inside the bar, he told them he was leaving for LA. The reaction from people in the bar was the same as if someone from LA was moving to Chicago. "WOW! OMG, really? LA! Wow you're soo lucky!"

My friend who went to Cornell told me that many of his friends from the East Coast that have never visited LA would be fascinated by his stories of LA. It's whatever is exotic that gets people's eyes glistening.
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  #39  
Old Posted Sep 26, 2006, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by LosAngelesBeauty
When I was in Chicago, I bumped into a guy at a bar who was moving to LA in a couple of weeks. As he bumped into people he knew inside the bar, he told them he was leaving for LA. The reaction from people in the bar was the same as if someone from LA was moving to Chicago. "WOW! OMG, really? LA! Wow you're soo lucky!"
Now change that venue to a bar in New York, and the reaction will be.... ""
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  #40  
Old Posted Sep 28, 2006, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bobcat
^I'm fully aware of what LA has to offer, but I'm comparing LA to cities like NYC and London, which I consider to be its peers. Just take opera as an example. The Metropolitan Opera has a budget of over $200 million and presents upwards of 30 different operas a season. LA Opera, while respectable, has a budget this year in the range of $50-55 million and presenting 8 operas. That's actually comparable to Chicago and San Francisco, but as far as I'm concerned LA Opera should be aiming much higher.

Contrast that with the visual arts, where LA does rival NYC. There are actually a lot of artists who believe LA is #1 for contemporary art.
LA is comparible to London and NY in the number of productions performed yearly in the city. When you add in the audience seats for the TV shows, it probably beats them in total numbers. I admit the productions play longer and are more elaborate in London and NY, but they are supported by tourists from all over the world. Most tourists have no idea of what is available in LA.
As for Opera, while admitting no one in the US can hold a candle to the met, I would point out that this week there are four operas playing locally, Don Carlo, Manon, the Peony Pavillion, and Porgy and Bess, (multiple companies including touring productions), and The Kirov "Ring" all of it is coming to Orange County next week. I would rather hear the LA PHil under Essa-Peka in the Disney Hall than the NY Phil at LIncoln center under anyone. Just a personal opinion.

As for popular music, comedy, and performing arts LA is the equal of London and NY. Check the listings. The only place LA really is behind is dance. No real classical ballet company, and we tend to depend on visiting troups. Still there is a lot more performing art in LA than most people realize. If the tourists would catch on, we could have a theater scene better than New York or even London.
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