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  #161  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2014, 10:33 PM
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then have it meet up with amtrak by wilsonvill or in canby. the green or orange line could do that though

i dont know what line id want to get done first. all four lines i would use

Last edited by dubu; Mar 21, 2014 at 11:26 PM.
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  #162  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2014, 12:35 AM
zilfondel zilfondel is offline
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I agree that "downtown Tigard" is a somewhat dubious title and destination, as the area really lacks any amenities that one might find in a downtown - public space, retail, housing, public institutions, etc. It is kind of a joke.

However, it is also a major transit center for the SW Metro area, with many bus lines, and the WES, meeting - which makes it a necessity to build a MAX station, so that people can transfer to the other lines.

OTOH, Gresham's experience with MAX is that the stations have attracted a large amount of retail, to the point that the old downtown pre-MAX Gresham is a real-estate bust. Apart from the trailer park at the Ruby Junction MAX station.
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  #163  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2014, 6:21 AM
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Tualatin isn't much of a destination - is it? I never travel on the westside, but i do know it's a smaller city. The whole alignment shouldn't take more than 25 min to travel from tualatin to downtown Portland via Tigard. It's worth the ridership to stop in Tigard.
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  #164  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2014, 1:30 PM
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Originally Posted by RED_PDXer View Post
Tualatin isn't much of a destination - is it? I never travel on the westside, but i do know it's a smaller city. The whole alignment shouldn't take more than 25 min to travel from tualatin to downtown Portland via Tigard. It's worth the ridership to stop in Tigard.
Are you saying it shouldn't *ideally* or that an alignment like this would probably have that sort of travel time?

Tualatin isn't Beaverton-level big, but it's growing, and Bridgeport Village is a popular destination, and it would capture riders from Wilsonville, Lake Grove, Sherwood, etc. The problem is that there are a lot of potential destinations in that area that aren't really in a corridor. I mean, the obvious, direct, route is south along I-5. But downtown Tigard is apparently a valid destination, and Kruse Way unquestionably is. But trying to include both is problematic.
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  #165  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2014, 7:54 PM
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theres that corner that can get developed in tualatin but its hard to get to where the max goes from there. wilsonvill would be a ok city for max, its not too far

tualatin isnt walkable at all. wilsonville you could put a ped bridge over the freeway and make it nice for biking and stuff

Last edited by dubu; Mar 22, 2014 at 8:41 PM.
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  #166  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2014, 11:55 PM
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Tualatin does actually have a downtown that includes a grocery store, some offices, a man-made lake/pond, a few restaurants, some condos and apartments, a library, and so on. There is also a sizable park, along with the WES station. When I worked out there, there were a fair number of transit riders and pedestrians, as well as a ton of traffic.
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  #167  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 12:34 AM
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theres a downtown thats nice

i was thinking as in the whole city when it gets bigger, i dont even want to think about how crappy it would be. well ive never lived in a city with freeways going through the middle. i gues it better then cali
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  #168  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 4:41 AM
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Originally Posted by bvpcvm View Post
Are you saying it shouldn't *ideally* or that an alignment like this would probably have that sort of travel time?

Tualatin isn't Beaverton-level big, but it's growing, and Bridgeport Village is a popular destination, and it would capture riders from Wilsonville, Lake Grove, Sherwood, etc. The problem is that there are a lot of potential destinations in that area that aren't really in a corridor. I mean, the obvious, direct, route is south along I-5. But downtown Tigard is apparently a valid destination, and Kruse Way unquestionably is. But trying to include both is problematic.
I think the alignment through this section would undoubtably be grade separately or exclusive right of way and should therefore be no more than 25 min.

I think some have pointed out that a BRT system would adequately respond to this situation by offering a more flexible routing so that a mainline would go from tigard to portland, and several lines would branch out from there to other secondary destinations like tualatin. I have no dog in the fight, but given the relatively low density of the westside, maybe this is as good as it gets? geez, SE Division has more density than Barbur blvd.
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  #169  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 7:08 AM
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True, but I-5 is a catastrophe, and other than Barbur itself, there are no alternative, parallel routes. How about a combination of LRT and BRT? Have LRT take the routes along I-5 (in other words, no jog over to Tigard), and let BRT cover Tigard and PCC.
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  #170  
Old Posted Mar 23, 2014, 7:42 PM
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maybe have comuter rail from canby to 99w (allong i5) and have brt or light rail go out further then the tigard tc on 99w.
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  #171  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2014, 3:47 PM
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If I could pick any route where money wasn't an issue, I would love to see a tunnel running from downtown to Barbur TC via OHSU, Hillsdale, and Multnomah Village. Then have access points where BRT could enter the tunnel at various points to provide a more efficient transit options to the SW.
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  #172  
Old Posted Mar 24, 2014, 8:29 PM
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underground brt instead of light rail, then you could have express busses. that would be sick
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  #173  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2014, 1:28 AM
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underground brt instead of light rail, then you could have express busses. that would be sick
Why not both? BRT can run on light rail tracks, they do that now through downtown and will be doing that with the new transit bridge.
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  #174  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2014, 2:40 AM
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We already have a connected, several billion dollar light rail network. I don't think introducing a new module of transit in Portland would ultimately be cost effective. By not being able to tap into an existing infrastructure that's already there for MAX, we will pay a lot of start-up costs to bring in BRT. Our 'cheaper' commuter rail and "already at rush-hour capacity" tram should be lessons learned.

The cost are larger upfront, but our high capacity system is the MAX.
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  #175  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2014, 4:23 AM
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true just use the light rail already close by in beaverton and bring it to tigard.

wes woould be shorter so make it a little bbit longer.

that would be easy
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  #176  
Old Posted Mar 25, 2014, 3:54 PM
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The costs aren't even really that much money as compared to other projects - WES cost less than the planning for the CRC bridge that got shelved!

Additionally, the entire MAX system to date has cost less than the projected price tag of the CRC.
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  #177  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2014, 9:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MarkDaMan View Post
We already have a connected, several billion dollar light rail network. I don't think introducing a new module of transit in Portland would ultimately be cost effective. By not being able to tap into an existing infrastructure that's already there for MAX, we will pay a lot of start-up costs to bring in BRT. Our 'cheaper' commuter rail and "already at rush-hour capacity" tram should be lessons learned.

The cost are larger upfront, but our high capacity system is the MAX.
I should add to my post, making a tunnel to the SW area would make sense to make it a light rail/bus tunnel much like Seattle has with their tunnel through downtown.
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  #178  
Old Posted Mar 26, 2014, 10:54 PM
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thats what powell should get. the west side could use that too probably
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  #179  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 1:40 AM
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So I decided to play transportation planner for the afternoon. Some thoughts on the potential SW Corridor routes.



Tie in to existing transit

Option B looks like the best choice, as it ties in well to the transit mall, and routes to OHSU, without requiring rebuilding existing (and recently completed) work for PMLR.

Options H & I, which show the idea of serving South Waterfront are interesting, but should be discarded. Firstly, South Waterfront is going to be very well served by transit already, between the yellow and orange lines, the streetcar, the tram and bus lines. Secondly, it would increase pressure on the aerial tram, which is apparently already at capacity. Lastly, it’s insane to go a lower elevation than downtown and then spend a lot of effort getting back up to the grade of Barbur.

Options E & G are non-starters because they don’t touch the transit mall.



South Portland to Burlingame

Option B, Medium Tunnel - Exit at Bertha, please. If we’re going to do this at all, let’s do it right. This is both the only effective way to serve OHSU and Hillsdale, and should also be dramatically faster than any other option. If Portland is serious about increasing TriMet’s modal share, it needs to make transit time-competitive with driving, and this is a major way to do so.

Option C, along Barbur, has few potential land-use benefits, and will require major engineering to accomplish anyway. Witness how long it’s taken them to replace the bridge on I-5 at the Terwilliger curves.



Burlingame to Barbur Transit Center

Option B, at grade along Barbur, presents some really interesting opportunities to make Barbur into a ‘main street’ for that part of SW Portland. Unlike the closer in sections of Barbur, it seems like there’s a lot of underutilized commercial land on either side of the street that could support dense, mixed use development. The rebuilding of the street would be a great opportunity to improve walking and biking conditions too. I just hope they make a more pleasant streetscape here than they did along N Interstate.

Option A, a continuation of the OHSU tunnel, seems like it’s too expensive to justify for the potential benefits (serving Multnomah Village). Option C has no advantages whatsoever.



PCC Area

I don’t have a strong preference between option B, C or D. I guess whichever serves PCC most cost effectively.



Tigard Triangle

See below.



OR-217 Crossing

Option A. As the Metro document states, this “provides most efficient transition between alignment north of Tigard and alignment south of Tigard”. I realize this serves Tigard Triangle less well, but serving the southern end of the Tigard Triangle before making a big loop to the North/West, as options B, C and D do, creates a permanent time penalty for anyone using the line.



Downtown Tigard

Option C, I think? All the options seem to serve Tigard Transit Center well, which is important for connections to WES and bus lines.



Tigard to Durham

Option C, along the WES line, as it provides the most direct route from Tigard TC toward Bridgeport Village. It doesn’t serve the Tigard library or municipal offices, but I don’t think those will provide such a large demand that they’re worth choosing Option F for. I’m not familiar with Hall Blvd at all, but it doesn’t seem like an appropriate street to build a MAX line along.



Bridgeport Village

Options C or D 72nd / Lower Boones Ferry or along I-5, as it provides the best access to Bridgeport Village.



Tualatin

Option B, WES Connection via Boones Ferry. If you’re going to almost all the way to the WES station, as in Option C, you might as well go all the way.

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  #180  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2014, 6:30 PM
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maybe they could make a tunnel to hillsdale or multnoma village right now then extend it later.
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