Toronto's dirty secret, the suburban slum

[Gerrard]

I hope people didn't vote for Rob Ford because they want a ban on immigration into the city. Because that just isn't going to happen. Immigrants will continue to come and there isn't a thing a municipality can do about it.

[Coral Builder]

Actually Municipalities ultimately control immigration, because they control zoning and building permits, as well as planning for water, sewage and electrical utilities. If Toronto wants to stop poeple from moving anywhere all they have to do is stop allowing developers to build places for them to move into. No water, no power, no sewer, no permit.. no housing, no more poeple.

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by Coral Builder

Actually Municipalities ultimately control immigration, because they control zoning and building permits, as well as planning for water, sewage and electrical utilities. If Toronto wants to stop poeple from moving anywhere all they have to do is stop allowing developers to build places for them to move into. No water, no power, no sewer, no permit.. no housing, no more poeple.

Yeah and he could potentially build a giant wall around the city too. But he isn't going to and he's not going to deny the city revenue by purposely killing the economy. He has very little power in deciding where immigrants settle. Even the feds don't have that sort of power once they allow people into the country. And even if he did do something that radical it wouldn't stop immigrants from coming to the city, we'd just see a proliferation of 20 people to a single room and tent cities.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Coral Builder

Actually Municipalities ultimately control immigration, because they control zoning and building permits, as well as planning for water, sewage and electrical utilities. If Toronto wants to stop poeple from moving anywhere all they have to do is stop allowing developers to build places for them to move into. No water, no power, no sewer, no permit.. no housing, no more poeple.

Actually no. I mean, in theory Toronto could try to do that, but it just wouldn't happen. Instead everything would end up being approved at the OMB with the City footing the legal bill. The Province ultimately controls what Canadian municipalities can and can't do, and Toronto has very specific growth targets to meet.

[citizen j]

mike,
you mentioned that the area's population has decreased 18%.
I wondered if that was due a drop in the number of households or because of a decrease in the size of the individual households themselves? In other words, is this part of the ongoing pattern of suburbs maturing as children grow up and leave home, leaving Mom and Dad behind as "empty-nesters"?

[UglymanCometh]

OMG I'd love to be slummin it up in Toronto...

It's just like Detroit! Y'kno... but uh... cleaner and busier... and more important... and... and...

[i_am_hydrogen]

Shame on you, Toronto.

[Coral Builder]

Toronto can and will limit immigration under Rob Ford, just as Oakville has limited it by slowing down development by raising development fees. This isn't about the type of poeple moving in to Toronto, its about the quantity of poeple. The transit system, the roads, the infrastructure simply cannot sustain more poeple. The poeple have spoken, and they just want things to slow down. With the state of traffic congestion can you really blame them? The same goes for attracting more homeless and poor to Toronto by providing the best subsidized housing in the province. Why concentrate this demographic in the City of Toronto? Let the other municipalities surrounding Toronto deal with some of the problem too. That way we can spread it out, and not end up with something like te DTES.

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by Coral Builder

Toronto can and will limit immigration under Rob Ford, just as Oakville has limited it by slowing down development by raising development fees. This isn't about the type of poeple moving in to Toronto, its about the quantity of poeple. The transit system, the roads, the infrastructure simply cannot sustain more poeple. The poeple have spoken, and they just want things to slow down. With the state of traffic congestion can you really blame them? The same goes for attracting more homeless and poor to Toronto by providing the best subsidized housing in the province. Why concentrate this demographic in the City of Toronto? Let the other municipalities surrounding Toronto deal with some of the problem too. That way we can spread it out, and not end up with something like te DTES.

It. Just. Won't. Happen. Toronto isn't Oakville and whatever "success" Oakville thinks it's had limiting newcomers to the city will not translate to Toronto. Absolutely no business or corporation will get behind an idea that limits immigration to Toronto. And subsidized housing is rarely built for newcomers to the city since it often has large waiting lists anyway, the last to arrive will be the last to be housed.

Rob Ford does not have absolute power as a mayor and again, even the Federal government cannot limit where people decide to immigrate to. It's wishful and thank God erroneous thinking that you can shut the doors of a city to immigration.

If there's any solution to traffic congestion, it's better transit and better housing options closer to their place of work. People only have themselves to blame for the amount of time they spend on the road.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Coral Builder

Toronto can and will limit immigration under Rob Ford, just as Oakville has limited it by slowing down development by raising development fees.

Oh yeah, because when I was on Dundas Street and 8th line in Oakville the last week for work there was no development going on. None. No cleared fields, no mid-rises under construction. No North Oakville subdivision planned or development applications coming in at the Regional level, much less municipal. They're just higher income than what's happening at the edge of other municipalities.

And wouldn't development charges be completely antithetical to Rob Fords idea of cutting costs? Y'know, since they are directly passed on down to the taxpayer? What about council? Do you think they would pass such a measure?

Remember, even though people love to talk about Rob Ford's "mandate" now, less than 50% voted for him. In the Old City of Toronto it was far less than this.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by niwell

Remember, even though people love to talk about Rob Ford's "mandate" now, less than 50% voted for him. In the Old City of Toronto it was far less than this.

Speaking of which...


http://torontoist.com/2010/10/which_..._for_mayor.php

[Coral Builder]

I take it you guys don't understand the word 'limit'. I guess that kind of ends this discussion. As for the guy who thinks 'development fees' are paid by taxpayers. Are you for real? You think taxpayers pay when a condo builder wants to build a tower? In any case, I'll repeat, Toronto can and will limit development and therefore immigration under Rob Ford. He is not an all powerful person as mayor, he has 44 other councillors to deal with, but he has a strong mandate, and thankfully, he has no strong NDP opposition block left on council to stop him (Moscoe, Giambroni, Busson, Rae, Pantalone, Miller etc.. all gone.). He also has pledges of support from almost half of council so far, and was elected by the largest proportion of voters and the largest turnout since Mel Lastman. You may think that because old Toronto didn't vote for him that he will yield less power somehow, but unfortunately, that is not how democracy works. Smitherman has no power now, even though he came second. Besides, Rob Ford was a very close second in all but one of those wards that are blue, so he has established a clear voter base in the downtown core. If a councillor gets in his way, they will likely pay in the next election, not him. As for blaming poeple with cars for the time they spend in traffic: I've heard the same stupid arguement from our good for nothing premier and his tax and spend wanna be green machine. Unfortunately, my career, and many others' require travel, and sometimes that requires me to have meetings and manage sites all around this city and others nearby. This includes getting to the airport, of which there is no other way at present. I have no choice but to travel by car, so I resent being preached to by someone who has no idea what he is talking about. Believe me, if I had a choice, it would be made and the same goes for 90% of the other poeple on the road. So sincerely, until toronto can improve its transit plan, it simply does not have the capacity to grow as quickly as it has been. Plan, then build, not the other way around. Roads and transit lines are like arteries in a living, breathing thing, which is a city. Clog the arteries, and you get a heart attack. Businesses leave, industry leaves, and along with these goes your tax base which you need to pay for all the services residents want.

[niwell]

Awesome, we have a guy with less than 50 posts with a majority of them ranting about left-wing "socialist" government in Toronto. What is this, urbantoronto????

And development charges are absolutely passed on down to the taxpayer. If you don't think so you might be developmentally challenged (not a pun).

[Coral Builder]

Who's ranting about a left-wing 'socialist' government in Toronto. Did you miss it, Rob Ford was just elected mayor? Since when does the number of posts I have on this site reflect my intelligence? Perhaps I just don't have as much free time as some other poeple out there, though I would enjoy participating more. Besides, I've recieved the message loud and clear, so this will be my last post on this thread. My point of view is clearly not shared by many of you. So be it. As for development fees, they are charged to the developer, not to existing taxpayers in the City. That is a fact. Look it up if you don't believe me.

[Coral Builder]

From the City of Toronto Website - http://www.toronto.ca/building/devlchgs.htm

"If you are building a new house on a vacant lot; a new lot created by severance or consent; or, expanding a non-residential building, your construction will likely be subject to Development Charges and Education Development Charges.

Development Charges and Education Development Charges assist in financing capital infrastructure (roads, water lines, sewers) required to accommodate growth, and must be paid prior to any Building Permit(s) being issued.

Education Development Charges

At its meeting of August 14, 2008, the Toronto Catholic District School Board passed an amendment to its Education Development Charges By-law 2003 - No. 163.

The purpose of the Amendment is to increase the charges from $442.00 to $544.00 per dwelling unit for residential development, and from $0.24 to $0.58 per square foot of gross floor area for non-residential development.

The new charges take effect on August 25, 2008. The new rates will apply for permit applications submitted after June 30, 2008.

What are Education Development Charges?
Section 257.54(1) of the Education Act enables a district school board to pass by-laws for the imposition of Education Development Charges against land if there is residential or other development in its area of jurisdiction that would increase education land costs. The Toronto Catholic District School Board has determined that the development of land in the City of Toronto increases education land costs and has imposed a Development Charge to cover those costs.


Current Education Development Charge Rates:
Category Education Development Charges
as of August 25, 2008
Residential charge per unit $544.00
Non-residential charge per square foot $0.58


Click here to read the Education Development Charge By-law
Parks Levy Fees

In new developments or redevelopments, developers and builders will be required to either set aside a certain amount of land for parkland (parkland dedication) or alternatively they pay cash-in-lieu of parkland dedication. When they pay the fee in lieu of parkland dedication, the fee is called a Parks Levy Fee. These fees are paid prior to the issuance of the first building permit.

Parks Levy Fees are a percentage of the market value of the development lands. (The Real Estate Unit of Facilities & Real Estate does the appraisal to determine the market value and the fee payable. There is also a fee for the appraisal.) For more information click here."


It helps to understand how your city works before voting for who it is that is going to run it...

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Coral Builder

As for development fees, they are charged to the developer, not to existing taxpayers in the City. That is a fact. Look it up if you don't believe me.

I UNDERSTAND THIS. I work as an urban planner, I am fully aware of how development charges work. I was never trying to claim they are charged directly to the taxpayer and if you got that from my posts you need to brush up on reading comprehension. The point I was trying to make is that if development charges exist, developers will pass that cost on to the consumer. As in: if in municipality A charges are $30,000 a house and in municipality B they are $70,000 (*cough* Oakville *cough*) houses in municipality B will reflect that extra cost.

If you think developers don't pass on that cost (as they pass on the price of almost any cost) then you're being a bit naive.

And I completely fail to see how raising development charges would result in anything but higher costs for new housing in Toronto, which I guess might force out new immigrants. Gentrification of the core would certainly continue unimpeded. This actually goes along with recent trends, as residential development charges have in fact been increasing dramatically. The only way to even somewhat stall growth in Toronto as I see it would be to raise residential tax rates to a rate higher than the 905 (currently much lower). Of course this is absolutely against what Rob Ford stands for, not to mention the elimination of the land-transfer tax which would make property transactions easier within the city... but I'll believe that one when I see it.

[MikeOnt]

I had no idea places like this existed in canada....what a shame.
just kidding. it looks normal to me. it is what it is lol.

[Coral Builder]

You wrote the following:
"And development charges are absolutely passed on down to the taxpayer". If you wanted to say consumer, you should have said consumer. That I can understand, hence the effect on immigration. Don't blame my reading comprehension for you writing the wrong word. A municipal taxpayer is someone who pays tax in the jurisdiction because he lives there already, a consumer is someone buying something there because he wants to move to that location (or run a rental property for another new resident of that location. Of course the developer absolutely passes the charge onto his customer, how else would he make money, and that's the whole point, when it becomes too costly to buy residences in certain areas, poeple can no longer afford to move in, how do you think they control growth and population distribution in most cities. And raising development charges is a proven way to slow population growth in specific areas. If you are an urban planner, you should be well aware of this, so I don't know what we are arguing about?? I'll leave it at that. I'll also leave you the last word, but a little respect goes a long way Niwell.

[pj3000]

I've been to Toronto many times in my life. But, I have to say that I never knew such awful slums of despair lurked deep in the suburbs of Toronto. What a horrifying pit of hell! I fear for my own life and the lives of all of my family members after having viewed this. I mean we know it's Halloween time and all, but do you really have to frighten the bejesus out of all of us by posting pics of a boarded up Cape Cod ghost house and scaring us with stories of bedbugs and sagging balconies?! You've gone too far, miketoronto! Stop!

We beg you to please never post such terrifying pictures of Toronto's slums on here again! I won't sleep for weeks!

[pj3000]

I've seen slums the world over, but never anything as awful as this! Why are you terrifying us like this? Are you some sort of sick, sadistic urban planning student who gets off on making other forumers crap their pants in fear of Toronto's slums? I know that it's enough to make me never visit the city again, knowing that this slum could suck me straight off of Bloor St. and trap me on a sagging balcony in Scarborough!