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  #12541  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2019, 7:49 PM
Redddog Redddog is offline
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
Tourists and conventioneers are downtown any and every day. Even when teens are in school. I do not foresee hundreds of urban youths stationed inside FDP during the middle of the day for various reasons. Is the issue concern about them being seen or loitering or what? Do you see what's on East Market? Tourists are seeing far worse than "urban" teens that may occasionally patronize the FDP.
That methadone clinic is on the outs, no? That'll be the biggest improvement to date on that stretch.

And why won't the mobs of kids congregate? I see that as the biggest threat to FDP by far.
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  #12542  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2019, 8:23 PM
cardeza cardeza is offline
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Originally Posted by Redddog View Post
That methadone clinic is on the outs, no? That'll be the biggest improvement to date on that stretch.

And why won't the mobs of kids congregate? I see that as the biggest threat to FDP by far.
Hmmm, why wouldnt mobs of kids be found loitering at all hours of the day at FDP when there will be security and said kids are in school 10 months out of the year? I have no idea. I just want to be clear is the concern about "mobs" of undesirable kids or is there a problem with these kids being in the mall generally? Can't really tell which is the real "concern". Nor has anyone actually explained how one goes about banning specific types of patrons without violating any laws. I didn't go to the gallery much, but when I did I certainly didn't see these hordes of rowdy urban types lurking- especially not during the work week. Makes me wonder how many people doing all this hand wringing actually know much about the former Gallery.
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  #12543  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2019, 8:40 PM
Kfmcshan Kfmcshan is offline
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5-Story, 24-Unit, Mixed-Use Building Coming to Harrowgate
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Just next door to the J Street Lofts at 3450 J St., a new building will rise. Stronghold Development & Construction, the team behind the J Street Lofts and the school conversion project, is erecting a ground-up, mixed-use building. The structure will rise 5-stories and will include 24 residential units and ground floor retail space.
Article Link: http://www.philarising.com/5-story-2...to-harrowgate/
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  #12544  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2019, 8:47 PM
New2Fishtown New2Fishtown is offline
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My own observations from 7/31 in no particular order

Hours have been posted on all of the doors (fairly typical of retail establishments, no later than 8-9pm). This necessarily means that there will need to be dedicated entrances to reach the 3rd floor entertainment venues when the rest of the complex is closed. Last I saw renderings, the dedicated AMC entrance is the one being built on Filbert just east of 11th (there is a large marquee-ish looking sign taking shape on Filbert, but no logo or AMC yet). My guess is that this will be the only one in in the evenings, but that during other hours one could find their way to the 3rd floor from anywhere in the complex. I believe the prominent corner entrance on the NE corner of 11th and Market would be for whatever large retailer takes that groundfloor corner space (last rumored to be Primark, though the lack of announcements on that front means they may have backed out or haven't signed).

Many spaces inside are being framed. One that isn't is the one at the NW corner of 10th and Market. Peering in the doors along 10th Street there is a tiny sign hanging over that unimproved space that, as best as my eyes could determine, is a piece of cardboard with the Yard House logo on it. I had previously seen Yard House listed as a tenant on other promotional materials inside the building. So this means either a) that Yard House will eventually occupy the 10th and Market corner across from H&M (a welcome F&B addition in my opinion), or b) that Yard House has pulled out of the project. The fact that it wasn't announced with the slew of other tenants this week means that, at best, they are still negotiating a lease. Having Yard House or a similar concept at street level would be nice synergy with City Winery and with Iron Hill down the street.

The space once rumored for Eataly, and then later rumored as a second Apple store location - the interior of the Strawbridges building at the east end - has had no work done on it in at least a year beyond C21 giving back a portion of its 1st floor space. It has the fewest and least recent permits pulled if you look on Atlas, and I've heard nothing to indicate they've made any progress on signing anything in that space. This to me is in many ways the most disappointing or critical piece only because of the architectural significance of the building and its location closest to tourist stuff on Independence Mall. On the other hand, it doesn't feel particularly cohesive with the rest, and many probably won't even realize it's supposed to be part of the larger FDP. In any event, it would be great to see them land something significant here. This piece may be too tough for retailers to wrap their heads around with the huge Disney hole vacancy across the street (remember, most retailers are lemmings with no ability or interest in imagining being the pioneers in a location they can't immediately see as successful). This observation is probably fair for the project overall: if the south side of Market were stronger (or at all palatable in the slightest anywhere between 8th and 11th), PREIT would have had a much easier time leasing this project up. Will be interesting to see if having large mainstream retailers open in FDP accelerates movement of leasing and redevelopment on the south side of the street.

In the transcript of PREIT's Q2 earnings call released today, they mentioned grab and go food options with alcohol for Jefferson Station commuters. This is interesting only because we can't tell from public materials which floors/areas any of these F&B vendors are going, and not many of the ones they've already announced sound like the kind that would offer booze to commuters a la places in Grand Central Station. It would be great to be pleasantly surprised by the mix of food vendors in the concourse level. That would do a lot to liven the place up.
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  #12545  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2019, 9:17 PM
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Knight Hospitaller Knight Hospitaller is offline
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
But it's not like what it was before - hence the top to bottom, fully opening up, rolling out $500billion multi-year project? Also, as a suburanite - this mall isn't *really* for you, is it? As a resident this is diversifying my shopping options without the need to get into a car - that's great.

Again, to my other post - urban shopping is in and of itself a unique retail offering when done well. This is the case on Mich Ave, 5th Ave, Newburry, MStreet, Walnut Street, etc. Now, maybe not your cup of tea, but a lot of people enjoy the experience, especially on weekends and during holiday season. And Market East - with the lighted billboards, coupled with other developments like East Market and the potential at 8th and Market, really could provide a unique, exciting visceral shopping experience.
It was admittedly more for me on a daily basis when I worked at 11th and Market. I agree about urban shopping experiences, but other than being in the city, a mall isn’t really an urban shopping experience without said attractions. I am curious what residents think about these offerings versus the gallery.
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  #12546  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2019, 9:27 PM
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
its accessible by public transportation and there arent many malls in the area that are centrally located. It will be a "hangout" no matter what. Teens go to malls and eat and hang out and waste money. Not sure what type of retail mix would change those facts. I assume you are inferring you were hoping it was going to be upscale to the point where teens wouldn't really be welcome- but it was originally called Fashion Outlets of Phila so its been clear for a while that this wasn't an urban K of P.
I do not have illusions about oases of upscale retail, especially at that location. I and others might be priced out, which would be another sort of problem. Having some upscale places in the mix may happen if FDP is successful. It’s not that mall isn’t already a natural hang out. What I’m hoping is that it draws enough interest from tourists, CC residents, and suburbanites that being a hangout is not its primary function. I think that when there are more people doing more things, it naturally curbs excesses.
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  #12547  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2019, 11:34 AM
jsbrook jsbrook is offline
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Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller View Post
I do not have illusions about oases of upscale retail, especially at that location. I and others might be priced out, which would be another sort of problem. Having some upscale places in the mix may happen if FDP is successful. It’s not that mall isn’t already a natural hang out. What I’m hoping is that it draws enough interest from tourists, CC residents, and suburbanites that being a hangout is not its primary function. I think that when there are more people doing more things, it naturally curbs excesses.
There is nothing in there that I can see that I'd drive in for from the suburbs except for City Winery and Round One. Not to say there isn't some other quality stuff. I will definitely go to the movie theater when back in the city and it's a walk. But City Winery and Round One seem to be the only somewhat unique things that are worth a trip. Everything else exists more conveniently out there. I don't think this needs to be a destination for suburbanites to be successful, though. Residents and tourists should be enough to sustain it if the offerings coalesce properly.
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  #12548  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2019, 12:07 PM
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It's pretty ugly (tan/brown poo color anyway) but nice to see new construction development in this neighborhood.
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  #12549  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2019, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cardeza View Post
I didn't go to the gallery much, but when I did I certainly didn't see these hordes of rowdy urban types lurking- especially not during the work week. Makes me wonder how many people doing all this hand wringing actually know much about the former Gallery.
Or maybe they went there MORE than you did so have more personal experience...there were flash mob incidents at the Gallery before it closed for renovation and many more less highly publicized more run of the mill violence and fights. And they migrated elsewhere after it did. https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...-84517507.html https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/us/25mobs.html https://billypenn.com/2017/03/13/fla...ban-terrorism/ https://6abc.com/several-assaulted-r...h-mob/2675407/ https://www.inquirer.com/video/surve...-20190710.html https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/20...pike-in-crime/ School is closed in the summer. And it closes at 3:00 the rest of the year. You are just hypersensitive to any post you perceive as "classist"
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  #12550  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2019, 1:39 PM
Redddog Redddog is offline
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Originally Posted by jsbrook View Post
Or maybe they went there MORE than you did so have more personal experience...there were flash mob incidents at the Gallery before it closed for renovation and many more less highly publicized more run of the mill violence and fights. And they migrated elsewhere after it did. https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news...-84517507.html https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/us/25mobs.html https://billypenn.com/2017/03/13/fla...ban-terrorism/ https://6abc.com/several-assaulted-r...h-mob/2675407/ https://www.inquirer.com/video/surve...-20190710.html https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/20...pike-in-crime/ School is closed in the summer. And it closes at 3:00 the rest of the year. You are just hypersensitive to any post you perceive as "classist"
Right?!

With the spate of mob-type activity that been going on in the city, it's not hard at all to imagine this as a potential issue. Kids hang out in malls. At least I did when I was one.
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  #12551  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2019, 2:14 PM
Justin7 Justin7 is offline
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
Yeah...because it's, uh, a mall? What were you guys expecting, Louis Vuitton? Newbury Street, Walnut Street or Magnificent Mile are effectively outdoor malls with standard "mall fare"
Hmm? I probably misunderstood your statement but while Newbury Street and Michigan Avenue both may house some "standard mall fare" they obviously have a lot more than that. I think people are just upset that this is essentially a suburban shopping mall in the heart of the city.

Personally just hoping the AMC is nice as this is likely the only reason I'll ever go here.
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  #12552  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2019, 3:25 PM
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Originally Posted by jsbrook View Post
It's pretty ugly (tan/brown poo color anyway) but nice to see new construction development in this neighborhood.
Whoa. Dude. I'm back in the 60s.
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  #12553  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2019, 3:48 PM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is offline
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Originally Posted by Justin7 View Post
Hmm? I probably misunderstood your statement but while Newbury Street and Michigan Avenue both may house some "standard mall fare" they obviously have a lot more than that. I think people are just upset that this is essentially a suburban shopping mall in the heart of the city.

Personally just hoping the AMC is nice as this is likely the only reason I'll ever go here.
The Newbury street analogy is at least accurate; Copley place mall is a block over, which is essentially a suburban mall in the heart of the city. Walnut/Chestnut are our Newbury, Market East/Liberty Place is our Copley Place.
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  #12554  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2019, 5:45 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
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Originally Posted by Redddog View Post
Right?!

With the spate of mob-type activity that been going on in the city, it's not hard at all to imagine this as a potential issue. Kids hang out in malls. At least I did when I was one.
Liberty Place is a mall and has several policies that restrict youth loitering - including during the school year not letting in kids under the age of 18 without an accompanying adult from 1pm till 6pm. We'll see how seriously PREIT takes this issue come September 19th.

Freire Charter school is across the street from FD and there's been some after school issues in the past...The WORST thing for FD's PR would be some sort of a mob issue early in the mall's run. Now, if they don't know this and don't take serious measures to address the concern, then they deserve the probable sh*&storm that's coming their way. Again, we won't know till 9/19.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justin7
Hmm? I probably misunderstood your statement but while Newbury Street and Michigan Avenue both may house some "standard mall fare" they obviously have a lot more than that. I think people are just upset that this is essentially a suburban shopping mall in the heart of the city.

Personally just hoping the AMC is nice as this is likely the only reason I'll ever go here.
There's almost nothing along Walnut Street or Michigan Ave or Newbury Street that you can't find in a normal regional mall - but these strips are packed with tourists and daytrippers - especially on the weekends. Why? Because the experience and vibe of downtown shopping is unparalleled. It's often a prelude to a dinner or night out in the City.

Now, most of our entire lives ME has been a decrepit joke, so me suggesting this could be a unique city-vibe destination that draws suburbanites on the weekends is basically short circuiting people's brains here. I get it. It will take a large-scale, regional zeitgeist shift to change this. But the new East Market complex, in particular, really shows what can be accomplished here.

I'm suggesting that ME *could* be the most dynamic commercial corridor in the city in 10 years - replete with lighted billboards, a shiny new skyscraper/department store at 8th and Market, new big box retailers that PREIT lands for some of its southside properties, an expanding East Market Complex to Chestnut, additional residential towers in the area.
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  #12555  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2019, 2:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jsbrook View Post
It's pretty ugly (tan/brown poo color anyway) but nice to see new construction development in this neighborhood.

You might be right, especially since this drawing looks a lot better then the built project will end up as. But I'd gladly take something like this over 90% of the low rise junk being thrown up is UC. (non Penn projects)
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  #12556  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2019, 2:29 PM
Justin7 Justin7 is offline
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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post
There's almost nothing along Walnut Street or Michigan Ave or Newbury Street that you can't find in a normal regional mall - but these strips are packed with tourists and daytrippers - especially on the weekends. Why? Because the experience and vibe of downtown shopping is unparalleled. It's often a prelude to a dinner or night out in the City.
Sorry to harp on this, but that's simply not true of Newbury Street. Are you confusing it with The Pru/Copley Place?

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Originally Posted by Londonee View Post

Now, most of our entire lives ME has been a decrepit joke, so me suggesting this could be a unique city-vibe destination that draws suburbanites on the weekends is basically short circuiting people's brains here. I get it. It will take a large-scale, regional zeitgeist shift to change this. But the new East Market complex, in particular, really shows what can be accomplished here.

I'm suggesting that ME *could* be the most dynamic commercial corridor in the city in 10 years - replete with lighted billboards, a shiny new skyscraper/department store at 8th and Market, new big box retailers that PREIT lands for some of its southside properties, an expanding East Market Complex to Chestnut, additional residential towers in the area.
I thought we were discussing The Gallery (or whatever) specifically. I have more hope for Market East as a whole so maybe we're not so terribly far apart on our outlook.
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  #12557  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2019, 6:34 PM
Londonee Londonee is offline
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Sorry to harp on this, but that's simply not true of Newbury Street. Are you confusing it with The Pru/Copley Place?
A large % of stores along Newbury Street are mall fare stores. H&M, Uniqlo, Urban, TJ Maxx, F21, Diesel, Lulu, Vans, North Face, Madewell, Shakeshack, DrMartens, Intermix, TieBar, BlueMercury, Starbucks, Bonobos, Marine Layer, Camper, Cole Haan, Kiehls, Victoria's Secret, Atheleta, Sephora, Sunglass Hut, Ralph Lauren, Barbour, etc.

What are we harping on? It's a beautiful non-mall setting - love shopping here - but most of these stores can be found at any decent (read, not dying like Plymouth Meeting) regional mall. Point being that the reason it's popular - and Walnut Street to a lesser extent - goes beyond just store selection and variety.

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I thought we were discussing The Gallery (or whatever) specifically. I have more hope for Market East as a whole so maybe we're not so terribly far apart on our outlook.
Do you understand that a large chunk of the stores are now opening up onto Market/Filbert and side streets? It's a dramatically different exterior pedestrian experience - which is a huge part of what I'm talking about. You can experience the Fashion District by strolling along Market Street - shop at several stores - and never actually set foot in a mall.
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  #12558  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2019, 6:59 PM
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The FDP got another tenant that interests me: South Fellini

http://southfellini.com/

Some of this stuff is gold. I really want a Wawa jawn hat.
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  #12559  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2019, 9:28 PM
eixample eixample is offline
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^Yeah, South Fellini's stuff is very witty/creative.

I walked by the Fashion District mall project today and noticed zoning notice for a pool/billiards use on the third floor. Haven't seen that mentioned before. Maybe it is associated with the bowling alley?

I also think the description of the people hanging out on East Market Street overstated. There is certainly a fair number of bums and junkies but it's really not THAT bad. Especially during the work day. And much of the reason it is bad is because PREIT closed up the Gallery for years and years and is sitting on vacant buildings on the south side. I think once the FD opens up there will be a lot more foot traffic and it'll be a lot nicer part of town.
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  #12560  
Old Posted Aug 2, 2019, 10:06 PM
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^Yeah, South Fellini's stuff is very witty/creative.

I walked by the Fashion District mall project today and noticed zoning notice for a pool/billiards use on the third floor. Haven't seen that mentioned before. Maybe it is associated with the bowling alley?

I also think the description of the people hanging out on East Market Street overstated. There is certainly a fair number of bums and junkies but it's really not THAT bad. Especially during the work day. And much of the reason it is bad is because PREIT closed up the Gallery for years and years and is sitting on vacant buildings on the south side. I think once the FD opens up there will be a lot more foot traffic and it'll be a lot nicer part of town.
Yes. https://fashiondistrictphiladelphia.com/entertainment It's probably part of Round One. Many of those venues have pool tables, and it looks like this one is supposed to: https://www.phillyvoice.com/fashion-...ood-bar-venue/
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