The Most Underrated City in Canada

[Dr Awesomesauce]

I take back what I said about GTAers. It's Hamilton's own suburbanites that truly damage this city's reputation. People who haven't set foot in the city centre in years, who are, as mentioned earlier, stuck in 1990.

While I understand there is urban-suburban strife around North America, I'm not sure there's a greater divide in any Canadian city.

Hamiltonians are some of the most self-loathing types around. That might be changing (slowly) but it'll take decades to change the attitudes of its denizens.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Woodroffe?

I could maaaaaayyyyybe see someone going with Island Park, but Woodroffe? That's so exceptionally out there and suburbia! I thought my definition of the O-train was overly lax. . .

Sadly, I'm not joking. In fairness to suburban Ottawans, it's only Kanata/Stittsville people I've heard go that crazy. My Orleans friends think of 'downtown' as extending to the Rideau River which is also a bit of a stretch but not nearly as much.

[1overcosc]

For Hamilton, is everything under the mountain pre-war and urban??? That's a HUGE pre-war area if true...

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Sadly, I'm not joking. In fairness to suburban Ottawans, it's only Kanata/Stittsville people I've heard go that crazy. My Orleans friends think of 'downtown' as extending to the Rideau River which is also a bit of a stretch but not nearly as much.

I would say that along Rideau St. it's understandable to think that. Along the side streets less so, but north of Rideau remains reasonably dense.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

For Hamilton, is everything under the mountain pre-war and urban??? That's a HUGE pre-war area if true...

Not quite. This map is (probably) from the 40s and gives a rough idea of Hamilton's area at the end of WWII.

http://www.archives.gov.on.ca/en/map...tworthbig.aspx

It's not the clearest, but it's the only one I could find. It seems fairly accurate from my experience, though may be lacking the historic pats of Stone Creek.

[middeljohn]

As far as the big 6 goes, Edmonton is easily the most under-rated, in my opinion. Honestly, before February of this year I knew next to nothing about Edmonton. Calgary is at least somewhat well-known to people in the eastern half, but Edmonton is basically known for having a really big mall. One of the most celebrated features among Edmontonians - the river valley - I never even knew existed.

I'm not trying to belittle my new city, quite the opposite actually. But this is coming from a guy who's been researching cities for a long time, so regular joes who don't have our urban geography hobby know even less about Edmonton than I did before February.

I keep sending some Toronto friends, all of whom are huge fans of Toronto, pics of Edmonton skyline pics without descriptions, and often get asked "nice pic, what city is that?", and when I tell them they always respond "wow Edmonton actually looks like a sick city".

[ssiguy]

I wouldn't say only Torontonians still have the negative view of Hamilton.

Londoners certainly look down on the place but then Londoners look down on all Ontario cities save Toronto and Ottawa.

I've hear men say that Montreal has the best looking women in the country so I will take it as true. That said, being gay myself, I can honestly say the men are a real disappointment. Vancouver is great if you like Asian men but if you don't {which I definitely don't}, the city is a complete right-off. Montreal may be the best city for women but Toronto is hands-down the best looking city for men.

[Boreal]

There is only one answer to this question.

A city so underrated, the unknown cities of Ontario and Quebec might as well be London, Paris and Berlin in comparison.

So unknown that the Atlantic cities crying for attention are incarnates of Edinburgh, Bilbao and Florence.

Prince Albert and Lethbridge get more vibe on this forum, then this city.

There are yet-to-be-discovered insects in the rainforest more well known then this city.

Ladies and gentlemen, your winner!

BRANDON, MANITOBA

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by matt602

Also regarding Kingston, most people I know refer to Kingston much like people refer to Hamilton. I've never really heard anyone talk well of it, even people that I know who live there. They usually call it a slummy place where everyone works in corrections or is addicted to drugs. I explored downtown Kingston for the first time this summer and really enjoyed it though. Wonderful architecture.

I've heard that Kingston has a very pronounced wealth gap and that there is very little interaction between Queen's students and the rest of the city. Maybe this is part of it?

For what it's worth, the Hamilton-Detroit comparisons don't seem too far off (having been to Detroit but not Hamilton). Hamilton looks like a cross between Detroit and Toronto, architecturally, and Detroit isn't exactly the worst place in the world like most people seem to think it is. It is surely, hands-down, the most underrated city in America, based on the criteria we've been using here. Rather than thinking of Hamilton as "Detroit-lite", think of Detroit as an exaggerated version of Hamilton* and the comparisons might start to ring a bit more true.

*I'm not sure if Detroit's "arson culture" or things like the Packard plant really have an equivalent in Hamilton though.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by north 42

The cities that I find are underrated are, Windsor, London, Hamilton, St. Catharines, Thunder Bay, Cambridge, and Oshawa, in Ontario. I'm not too familiar with some of the other cities in the rest of the country, but would say All three of New Brunswick's cities also seem to fly under the radar as well.

Oshawa? Really?

Can you name five interesting things about Oshawa?


Re: New Brunswick: Unless you're expecting Moncton to be an absolute shithole, I doubt you're going to be blown away. Aside from being the de facto centre for most things Acadian, and the new trend of tidal bore surfing, there is very little of interest about that city.

Fredericton might be a bit underrated, although I'm not sure what the general public thinks it is like there. It has a genteel, very middle-class vibe, kind of like a second-tier New England college town. Everything is very tidy and there is nothing particularly radical. It's not the most happening place but has a good arts scene and a cool little bar district.

Saint John seems like the kind of place that is much more enjoyable to visit than to live in. Lots of affordable character homes but from my understanding, the city has a slightly bleak, depopulated feeling and smells bad/is polluted. Reversing Falls is cool. I think the city should capitalize on its position as the only Canadian city on the Bay of Fundy (not sure if any of Maine's cities are considered to lie on the B-of-F).

Honestly, Charlottetown feels considerably bigger, more urbane and more locally and nationally important than either Moncton or Fredericton, despite being about 1/3-1/2 the size of either of those cities.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Even those with more realistic preconceptions seemed to greatly underestimate the city's size and density. We're a small city, of course, but people were constantly passing comments that suggested they thought we were a village - from being surprised we, two, have four-lane roads (two in each direction), and public transportation.

You should be careful not to assume that because visitors are surprised you "have something", they must have thought you were a backwater village. 4-lane roads for example are a luxury* in Halifax. There honestly are not very many. I could probably count on one hand the number of streets on the Halifax Peninsula with 4 or more lanes for more than 20% of their total length. I would guess that Quebec City is similar

Wider roads also do not necessarily equal bigger, more sophisticated city - Edmonton's are almost surely the widest in Canada, for example. Inner-city Toronto has few (if any) 2-way streets with more than 2 lanes in each direction, and a large proportion are only 1 lane each way. Same with Vancouver.

The density thing, again, is probably not so much an actively "I think St. John's is probably pretty rural, right?" kind of attitude so much as the fact that there are very few cities in Canada with the kind of lowrise density that St. John's has, so people are surprised to find it anywhere. The fact that much of the inner city is on a steep hill and is made that much more visible probably adds to the effect.



*For non-urbanists, I guess

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Boreal

There is only one answer to this question.

A city so underrated, the unknown cities of Ontario and Quebec might as well be London, Paris and Berlin in comparison.

So unknown that the Atlantic cities crying for attention are incarnates of Edinburgh, Bilbao and Florence.

Prince Albert and Lethbridge get more vibe on this forum, then this city.

There are yet-to-be-discovered insects in the rainforest more well known then this city.

Ladies and gentlemen, your winner!

BRANDON, MANITOBA

I know you're being facetious but for the record I'd argue that Brandon actually IS pretty underrated. Apart from the shamefully neglected downtown area which could be the jewel in that city's crown, it is a pretty nice place to live... to me, it always felt more like a small city than a big town, which is basically how every other place in Manitoba other than Winnipeg feels.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by Hali87

You should be careful not to assume that because visitors are surprised you "have something", they must have thought you were a backwater village. 4-lane roads for example are a luxury* in Halifax. There honestly are not very many. I could probably count on one hand the number of streets on the Halifax Peninsula with 4 or more lanes for more than 20% of their total length. I would guess that Quebec City is similar

Wider roads also do not necessarily equal bigger, more sophisticated city - Edmonton's are almost surely the widest in Canada, for example. Inner-city Toronto has few (if any) 2-way streets with more than 2 lanes in each direction, and a large proportion are only 1 lane each way. Same with Vancouver.

The density thing, again, is probably not so much an actively "I think St. John's is probably pretty rural, right?" kind of attitude so much as the fact that there are very few cities in Canada with the kind of lowrise density that St. John's has, so people are surprised to find it anywhere. The fact that much of the inner city is on a steep hill and is made that much more visible probably adds to the effect.

*For non-urbanists, I guess

Very true - but I'm mostly just summarizing these experiences using the common lingo we share on SSP. This isn't really how they spoke of it.

The Halifax cabbie who asked me about four-lane roads, for example, was clearly doing it to be condescending. It could have been his idea of some friendly ribbing, but it was definitely not a well-intentioned question about the prevalence of pre-war urban form in St. John's. He clearly believed we didn't have such roads in the city and wanted to tease me about it.

A bit like someone here saying, "You won't get this in Toronto" about something - be it an iceberg or whatever else. You might imagine condescension where none exists, but usually you can tell their intentions. And, either way, it clearly implies the expectation that, indeed, icebergs aren't present in Toronto.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Oshawa? Really?

Can you name five interesting things about Oshawa?


Re: New Brunswick: Unless you're expecting Moncton to be an absolute shithole, I doubt you're going to be blown away. Aside from being the de facto centre for most things Acadian, and the new trend of tidal bore surfing, there is very little of interest about that city.

Fredericton might be a bit underrated, although I'm not sure what the general public thinks it is like there. It has a genteel, very middle-class vibe, kind of like a second-tier New England college town. Everything is very tidy and there is nothing particularly radical. It's not the most happening place but has a good arts scene and a cool little bar district.

Saint John seems like the kind of place that is much more enjoyable to visit than to live in. Lots of affordable character homes but from my understanding, the city has a slightly bleak, depopulated feeling and smells bad/is polluted. Reversing Falls is cool. I think the city should capitalize on its position as the only Canadian city on the Bay of Fundy (not sure if any of Maine's cities are considered to lie on the B-of-F).

Honestly, Charlottetown feels considerably bigger, more urbane and more locally and nationally important than either Moncton or Fredericton, despite being about 1/3-1/2 the size of either of those cities.

Well, maybe not Oshawa, lol.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

The Halifax cabbie who asked me about four-lane roads, for example, was clearly doing it to be condescending. It could have been his idea of some friendly ribbing, but it was definitely not a well-intentioned question about the prevalence of pre-war urban form in St. John's. He clearly believed we didn't have such roads in the city and wanted to tease me about it.

i still find your halifax story so funny.

imagine! the great, imposing, imperial metropolis of.... halifax, nova scotia.

"i bet you've never seen a city like this!"


quinpool road, in all its sprawling majesty.

i wonder if people in brantford swagger like late-era babylonians when they encounter people from belleville?

we have such a funny old country.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Hali87

I've heard that Kingston has a very pronounced wealth gap and that there is very little interaction between Queen's students and the rest of the city. Maybe this is part of it?

Bingo. Kingston has many faces and what you think the city is depends entirely on which faces you see. I would not be surprised if some people perceive the city as a intellectual college town, others perceive it as a hedonistic party city, others as a basket case of poverty, and others as a run of the mill family-friendly small Ontario city.

[flar]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

For Hamilton, is everything under the mountain pre-war and urban??? That's a HUGE pre-war area if true...

Most of it. And there are also older areas in Dundas, Stoney Creek and along the mountain brow.

For the newer people, here are photos of most Hamilton neighborhoods:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=161816


You'll also find two Kingston tours, most of Ottawa and many other towns and cities.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

i wonder if people in brantford swagger like late-era babylonians when they encounter people from belleville?

Haha

Quinte Mall? You guys are just so small town. This here's the telephone city!
woot!

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Re: New Brunswick: Unless you're expecting Moncton to be an absolute shithole, I doubt you're going to be blown away. Aside from being the de facto centre for most things Acadian, and the new trend of tidal bore surfing, there is very little of interest about that city.

Fredericton might be a bit underrated, although I'm not sure what the general public thinks it is like there. It has a genteel, very middle-class vibe, kind of like a second-tier New England college town. Everything is very tidy and there is nothing particularly radical. It's not the most happening place but has a good arts scene and a cool little bar district.

Saint John seems like the kind of place that is much more enjoyable to visit than to live in. Lots of affordable character homes but from my understanding, the city has a slightly bleak, depopulated feeling and smells bad/is polluted. Reversing Falls is cool. I think the city should capitalize on its position as the only Canadian city on the Bay of Fundy (not sure if any of Maine's cities are considered to lie on the B-of-F).

Honestly, Charlottetown feels considerably bigger, more urbane and more locally and nationally important than either Moncton or Fredericton, despite being about 1/3-1/2 the size of either of those cities.

I always enjoy reading reviews of NB cities written by Haligonians - they're usually so condescending and cute (in an offhand and dismissive sort of way) - a bit like a metrosexual Torontonian who never ventures north of Bloor Street writing reviews about Timmins, Hearst and Geraldton.......

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

i wonder if people in brantford swagger like late-era babylonians when they encounter people from belleville?

we have such a funny old country.

They probably do. It seems population has always been part of the larger identity crisis on the mainland. And there are lots of historical reasons while size is associated with power here, as opposed to, say, military strength in the U.S.

Canada grew up obsessed with the percentage of First Nations, percentage of francophones, influence versus the U.S., etc. By the time we joined, these neurosis were well-established.

Yeah, I find my city more urban than some far-larger ones I've lived in. That's not a contradiction in my mind. Towers in the park (or, on the prairies, in the parking lot) might as well be big big stores to me.

We've had a population of about 100,000 in the City proper my entire lifetime. And I'm fine with that.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I always enjoy reading reviews of NB cities written by Haligonians - they're usually so condescending and cute (in an offhand and dismissive sort of way) - a bit like a metrosexual Torontonian who never ventures north of Bloor Street writing reviews about Timmins, Hearst and Geraldton.......

I think it's amazing how Monctonians are so boastful of their city (it's entirely the opposite of many Haligonians' constant civic lamentation about "oh this place is terrible/expensive/poor/"). But I think it has to be tempered with some realism—to most people visiting from elsewhere, Moncton is a bit of a pass-through town, albeit one worth exploring if you're interested in Acadian culture. I'll quote Lonely Planet on Moncton: "It's a pleasant, suburban city, with a small redbrick downtown along the muddy banks of the Petitcodiac River. There are some decent restaurants, bars and a bustling Acadian farmers market. Apart from that, there is little to detain the visitor."

Saint John is endlessly frustrating due to the gap between the reality and the potential—Uptown is like a half-size version of Old Montreal in terms of urban scale, complete with multiple commercial streets (rather than just one and a bunch of residences), and architecture that could be plucked right out of Lower Manhattan. But it's too empty to live up to its potential. It could be Canada's best small city by far, but it needs a much greater density of residents in Uptown, which really blew me away the first time I saw it:






And Fredericton's nice.