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  #201  
Old Posted May 3, 2008, 3:27 PM
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I suppose EB and WB on Main St will work. Though where to place the two lanes will be important. Place the lanes in the middle or have them on the edge of Main St?

If Main is to stay one way than the lanes will be at the edge of Main St. If Main St goes two way the transit lanes it'll be in the centre of Main St.
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  #202  
Old Posted May 3, 2008, 3:28 PM
raisethehammer raisethehammer is offline
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I dunno... they seem pretty dedicated to get it done NOW. The money is being waved in our faces, why wouldn't we jump? haha

You said yourself, rth, that the Public Works Dep't was surprised at how quickly this is moving along. This is a new thing for Hamilton bureaucrats.

And ya, re: EB on Main/WB on King; it needs to be stressed that the city is just exploring ALL options (like the KW ppl explained). Hell, the KW ppl even studied the feasibility of PRT (Personal Rapid Transit... like the Jetsons haha), that doesn't mean they're going to do it. They/we just need to cover their/our asses so that any resistance is met with hard data.

So Public Input is recquired here as well; if you want both directions along Main, email them and let them know that's what you want. They're pretty much going to do what the public wants.

ps: They also admitted that they read blogs & forums online *ahem*
so true...this is a new experience for all of us in Hamilton. Public input that actually matters, government money for something great, fast moving process at city hall???? wow.... how un-Hamilton is this whole process!!
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  #203  
Old Posted May 4, 2008, 2:03 PM
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welcome to the forum, mr. mcgreal. i think it's safe to assume that we all look forward to your input, though you should know that this forum is slightly less dignified than what you're used to. enjoy.

incidentally, i'm torn on the main st. issue: one-way; two-way; lrt on main only; lrt on both main and king. i like the idea of spreading the wealth a little and having lrt on both main and king but i think efficiency and cost trump that. main should be two-way but it'll be a tough sell to drivers...though i'm not sure why i care. my guess is that two-way lrt would eat-up three lanes on main, so that leaves only two lanes - fine for one-way but not so much for two-way. it would be a big pill to swallow for those used to blasting along main. we shall see.
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  #204  
Old Posted May 4, 2008, 4:40 PM
11thIndian 11thIndian is offline
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I was looking at the proposed LRT map on the Hamilton website. For the A line, what is the exact route proposed for getting up the escarpment? Is it going up the W5th hill?
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  #205  
Old Posted May 4, 2008, 5:53 PM
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I was looking at the proposed LRT map on the Hamilton website. For the A line, what is the exact route proposed for getting up the escarpment? Is it going up the W5th hill?
They don't know yet. They want the public's input. They are completely open to suggestions.

They said they know 100% that the grade for St Joe's Dr is too steep and a tunnel would be needed.

Clairmont/W5th is an option, but they want all input in first.
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  #206  
Old Posted May 4, 2008, 6:42 PM
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They said they know 100% that the grade for St Joe's Dr is too steep and a tunnel would be needed.
Do you mean James Mountain Road?
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  #207  
Old Posted May 4, 2008, 7:12 PM
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^^ haha Oh ya, my bad sorry:

Quote:
They said they know 100% that the grade for James Mtn Rd is too steep and a tunnel would be needed.
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  #208  
Old Posted May 5, 2008, 11:11 AM
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Rapid transit information sessions this week

May 05, 2008
Eric McGuinness
The Hamilton Spectator

Mayor Fred Eisenberger says rapid transit in Hamilton may require operating subsidies as well as capital grants from the federal and provincial governments.

"All the capital dollars in the world don't give you the operating dollars you need," he said Saturday as he participated in one of many small discussion groups at a brainstorming session held at McMaster University by Metrolinx, the provincial Crown corporation drafting a master transportation plan for the Greater Toronto Area and Hamilton.

While a report suggests an east-west rapid transit service, using either buses or modern streetcars, would run one way on Main Street and the other on King, Eisenberger said, "Having transit on one street going both ways makes sense."

Just because continuing the present one-way system is recommended, "doesn't mean it is carved in stone," he said. "We have to hear what the community thinks."

Brian Baetz, a civil engineering professor at Mac, asked, "If you went two-way on one line, could you get rid of cars completely and make it a pedestrian zone?"

Scott Stewart, general manager of public works, said, "Whatever works socially and economically."

Peter Hutton said: "The concept of one route being non-car is perfectly valid to suggest. The staff want feedback on uses of the rights-of-way. We need to think about pedestrians, transit, bikes and cars."

Baetz also suggested the service not run just from Eastgate Square to the university, but "take it a little bit further, take it past the new student housing on Main West and loop it at University Plaza, which needs to be redeveloped. It could be the Westgate of Hamilton."

Hamilton's new Transportation Master Plan calls for three higher-speed transit routes -- a north-south line from the harbour to the airport and cross-city services both above and below the Mountain. The Ontario government is offering capital grants for two, the north-south service and an east-west service in the lower city.

Two public information centres are being held this week as part of a new Rapid Transit Feasibility Study aimed at choosing between light rail and bus rapid transit as well as how such services would operate in the corridors identified.

The first will be tomorrow evening at Sackville Hill Seniors' Recreation Centre, 780 Upper Wentworth St. and the second on Thursday at the Education Centre, 100 Main St. W. Both will run from 6:30 to 8:30 p.m. with presentations at seven o'clock.

For further information on the Saturday session check out metronauts.ca.

For more on Hamilton's rapid transit study, go to myhamiton.ca, click on city and government in the list on the left, then click on projects and initiatives.

More on light rail transit can be found at hamiltonlightrail.com.
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  #209  
Old Posted May 5, 2008, 1:16 PM
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i think they are confused about operatiing costs.

there is no way that LRT will cost more than BRT taking into account the increased ridership, fewer drivers per passenger and rising fuel costs

NOT TO MENTION INCREASED TAX REVENUE. damn, i would even support a small temporary extra rail levy for properties within 1km of the line because i know for a fact that the levy will be deemed unnecessary within a year of the train opening. and by the way, i would BEG to have the line come within 1km of my house so that i could pay the levy and reap the benefits of being so damned close to the train.

the word is getting out there, now we need to stress the long term savings lrt can bring.
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  #210  
Old Posted May 5, 2008, 5:09 PM
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Thanks for the warm welcome, thedude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the dude View Post
main should be two-way but it'll be a tough sell to drivers...
The first thing I'd argue is that putting LRT in dedicated lanes actually benefits drivers, for the same reason that it benefits LRT passengers: each mode no longer gets in the other's way.

LRT in itself actually reduces congestion, because a dedicated lane running, say, 300 passenger vehicles every ten minutes will carry considerably more people per lane-hour than an equivalent car lane. Since LRT actually gets people out of their cars, it can produce a net reduction in drivers so the remaining lanes are more clear.

Of course, LRT also drives changes in land use and density that change transportation patterns, so mapping congestion becomes a problem of organized complexity rather than a single-variable analysis. Overall, I would hazard a rough guess that LRT works out to be congestion-neutral or near enough as makes no big difference. (Of course I think congestion is a Good Thing, but that may be too much for committed drivers to accept at first blush.)

Now LRT only reduces net congestion as long as it maintains a high rate of flow-through per lane-hour. That means it needs to move freely down the street - and that means it needs dedicated lanes and signal priority.

As for the two-way issue, I'd argue the following:

Putting both LRT directions on Main St. lowers the construction cost per kilometre, so we can get more bang for our Metrolinx buck. It also makes the system easier to navigate, and usability is a huge issue for getting people to choose transit.

The value-add economic development that takes place in the transit corridor - like the value-add economic development that takes place in cities in general - is based around accessibility, proximity, density, mixed use, and network redundancy (i.e. several routes to get from any point to any other point). Two-way streets are more conducive to all these features; whereas one-way streets are only good for speeding you through a place.

The best way to replicate the flow-through of multilane one-way streets is to maximize the network effects of the grid - many routes from anywhere to anywhere else. That effectively means making all the major streets two-way, which eliminates the bottleneck that currently occurs whenever an artery gets clogged by construction, auto collisions, etc.

This actually makes more effective use of total lane capacity. It's a funny thing about road engineering that adding more lanes to a given street is subject to diminishing returns. E.g. if I have a two-lane street that manages 800 vehicles per lane-hour, doubling the number of lanes produces less than double the vehicle capacity. As a result, two streets of two lanes each carry more vehicles than one street of four lanes.
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  #211  
Old Posted May 5, 2008, 5:12 PM
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Originally Posted by coalminecanary View Post
there is no way that LRT will cost more than BRT taking into account the increased ridership, fewer drivers per passenger and rising fuel costs
LRT definitely has lower per-passenger operating costs, but it also attracts far more riders, so the total operating cost goes up.

The difference of focus seems to boil down to whether one regards increased popularity as a success to be leveraged or a problem to be avoided.
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  #212  
Old Posted May 5, 2008, 5:59 PM
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But the increased ridership also represents an increase in fares collected as well, right?
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  #213  
Old Posted May 5, 2008, 6:00 PM
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I'm guessing transit is subsidized to the point where the fares don't cover the actual cost of usage.
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  #214  
Old Posted May 5, 2008, 6:05 PM
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This is where the city can increase the HSR general levy to cover the operating cost. The general levy for HSR hasn't been touched for nearly two decades. When HSR need more cash council always raise the cash fare instead of the general levy.
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  #215  
Old Posted May 5, 2008, 6:05 PM
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I'm guessing transit is subsidized to the point where the fares don't cover the actual cost of usage.
Yes that is true...
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  #216  
Old Posted May 5, 2008, 7:05 PM
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Has anyone considered the implications of average passenger loading on the difference in operating cost between bus and rail? If a route is overserviced (or rather underutlized) the system would lose more by operating an empty tram than an empty bus. To reap the benefits of LRT for operating cost, we would have to keep the averages up. Would there be enough packed vehicles to solidify this operating cost advantage or would there be trade-offs in service? We would also gain efficiency by offloading parallel service onto the LRT, for example Upper Gage buses would meet the LRT at Kenilworth and proceed up the mountain. The speed advantage of LRT would justify the extra transfer.
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  #217  
Old Posted May 5, 2008, 7:21 PM
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Quote:
But the increased ridership also represents an increase in fares collected as well, right?
HSR fares cover something like 54% of total operating costs. Assuming the LRT fare remains the same as a bus fare, the LRT fare would probably cover a slightly higher proportion than that, since the per-passenger operating cost is lower - maybe 60%.

The other 40% has to come from the city's HSR operating budget, which comes from the transit tax levy, and from the gas tax transfer, which is supposed to be used to increase service but has generally been used to offset levy increases.

SteelTown is right about the city's reluctance to increase the transit levy. Between 2000 and 2007, the budget for waste management increased 89%, DARTS increased 77% (due to Hamilton losing a human rights case related to serving disabled riders), parks increased 58%, roads increased 57%, fire services increased 47%, police increased 46%, libraries increased 31%, and transit increased 29%.

http://raisethehammer.org/blog/531

Another problem is that Hamilton is unique in charging different parts of the city different tax rates for transit (this is called area rating). Residents in the old city of Hamilton pay three times as much toward transit as residents in Glanbrook, three and a half times as much as residents in Stoney Creek, four times as much as residents in Dundas, and nearly five times as much as residents in Ancaster.

http://raisethehammer.org/blog/749

Until this year's budget, Flamborough paid nothing toward transit (a bus now connects Waterdown with the GO train).

Area rating was a compromise to sweeten the bitter pill of amalgamation. Even though it systematically starves the HSR and Hamilton is pretty much the only city in Canada with such an arrangement, any attempt to end it would be met with fierce resistance from suburban councillors - the very people who already have the least direct interest in LRT.

Mayor Eisenberger, who supports LRT, said a year ago that he thinks area rating is "a very divisive issue" and he doesn't want to broach it.

http://raisethehammer.org/blog/556/

He would rather raise fares and get higher levels of government to put more into Hamilton's transit operating budget. That's consistent with his call on Saturday for a promise of rapid transit operating money from the Province.
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  #218  
Old Posted May 6, 2008, 2:05 AM
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Originally Posted by SteelTown View Post
Rapid transit information sessions this week

May 05, 2008
Eric McGuinness
The Hamilton Spectator

Mayor Fred Eisenberger says rapid transit in Hamilton may require operating subsidies as well as capital grants from the federal and provincial governments.

"All the capital dollars in the world don't give you the operating dollars you need," he said Saturday as he participated in one of many small discussion groups at a brainstorming session held at McMaster University by Metrolinx, the provincial Crown corporation drafting a master transportation plan for the Greater Toronto Area and Hamilton.

While a report suggests an east-west rapid transit service, using either buses or modern streetcars, would run one way on Main Street and the other on King, Eisenberger said, "Having transit on one street going both ways makes sense."

Just because continuing the present one-way system is recommended, "doesn't mean it is carved in stone," he said. "We have to hear what the community thinks."

Brian Baetz, a civil engineering professor at Mac, asked, "If you went two-way on one line, could you get rid of cars completely and make it a pedestrian zone?"

Scott Stewart, general manager of public works, said, "Whatever works socially and economically."

Peter Hutton said: "The concept of one route being non-car is perfectly valid to suggest. The staff want feedback on uses of the rights-of-way. We need to think about pedestrians, transit, bikes and cars."

Baetz also suggested the service not run just from Eastgate Square to the university, but "take it a little bit further, take it past the new student housing on Main West and loop it at University Plaza, which needs to be redeveloped. It could be the Westgate of Hamilton."

Hamilton's new Transportation Master Plan calls for three higher-speed transit routes -- a north-south line from the harbour to the airport and cross-city services both above and below the Mountain. The Ontario government is offering capital grants for two, the north-south service and an east-west service in the lower city.

Two public information centres are being held this week as part of a new Rapid Transit Feasibility Study aimed at choosing between light rail and bus rapid transit as well as how such services would operate in the corridors identified.

The first will be tomorrow evening at Sackville Hill Seniors' Recreation Centre, 780 Upper Wentworth St. and the second on Thursday at the Education Centre, 100 Main St. W. Both will run from 6:30 to 8:30 p.m. with presentations at seven o'clock.

For further information on the Saturday session check out metronauts.ca.

For more on Hamilton's rapid transit study, go to myhamiton.ca, click on city and government in the list on the left, then click on projects and initiatives.

More on light rail transit can be found at hamiltonlightrail.com.


Holy crap...am I the only one absolutely stoked at athe pro-LRT slant to this piece...even listing the lightrail.com address at the end of the article.
I agree that Main st 2-way LRT would be best for the users, but I do have a part of me that would love to see LRT on King St too. Maybe it could be 2-way on King?? Too narrow though, I think.
Honestly, I'll be happy with LRT period.
I don't think closing either street to LRT exclusively is a good idea. We're not ready for that yet. Start with Gore Park and north leg of King, and go from there.
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  #219  
Old Posted May 6, 2008, 2:41 PM
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I'll be going to the information session tonight at Sackville.
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  #220  
Old Posted May 6, 2008, 3:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SteelTown View Post
I'll be going to the information session tonight at Sackville.
booo I'm have to go to Thorold 2nite, but I will be going to the one on Thu (May 8th) at the Edu. Ctr. Anyone else going then?
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