Canada's Best Prime Ministers - Page 5

shreddog · #81 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 1:44 PM**

The challenge with these exercises (best PM) is that they are done with today's ethics, biases and stories. Prime ministerial actions may have been appropriate for the times and the prevalent mores, yet we would find them unacceptable today.

Further, the "needs" of the country have changed over time and often we had the best PM for the times, but not for all times.

For example, Trudeau was a self-assured, charismatic genius who had a vision for Canada. He saw something that was needed as the country "came of age" by turning 100. He ushered in a new Canada, something I think most people appreciate today. However he was a disastrous PM from a managerial/financial perspective. Under Pearson, Canada was a respected mid-level power. Trudeau took that international respect and pissed it away. As someone mentioned, it was pathetic to watch him during his "anti-nuclear" campaign.

While brilliant beyond compare, he was also arrogant and condescending. Could you imagine Harper telling an MP to "fuck off" in the HoC?? Or his egregious lie concerning wage and prince controls? None of that compares to his major faus pax on the Cold war. Solidarity was one of the key drivers to ending the Warsaw pact, yet Trudeau supported martial law to shut it down in the beginning (contrary to every other western leader).

I had the fortune to meet him and am glad we had him as PM when we did. That said, he was far from perfect and would have been a "bad" PM had he been in power in any other time in our history.

shreddog · #82 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 1:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

definitely a hero of mine. "He got in my face, and I took him out!"

Chretien was an absolute bully, both in life and in politics. Totally unacceptable, however it got him elected and egg on Paul's face. It's interesting that you would find him as a hero.

shreddog · #83 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 1:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I am trying to think of one single admirable thing his administration has accomplished for our country.

Hmmm, with all their years in power, the Liberals could never bring themselves to apologize for the Residential schools that destroyed 1000's of life's.

Also, according to McGuinty, Harpo did more for Ontario than any Liberal PM!

Acajack · #84 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 1:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by shreddog

The challenge with these exercises (best PM) is that they are done with today's ethics, biases and stories. Prime ministerial actions may have been appropriate for the times and the prevalent mores, yet we would find them unacceptable today.

Further, the "needs" of the country have changed over time and often we had the best PM for the times, but not for all times.

For example, Trudeau was a self-assured, charismatic genius who had a vision for Canada. He saw something that as needed as the country "came of age" by turning 100. He ushered in a new Canada, something I think most people appreciate today. However he was a disastrous PM from a managerial/financial perspective. Under Pearson, Canada was a respected mid-level power. Trudeau took that international respect and pissed it away. As someone mentioned, it was pathetic to watch him during his "anti-nuclear" campaign.

While brilliant beyond compare, he was also arrogant and condescending. Could you imagine Harper telling a PM to "fuck off" in the HoC?? Or his egregious lie concerning wage and prince controls? None of that compares to his major faus pax on the Cold war. Solidarity was one of the key drivers to ending the Warsaw pact, yet Trudeau supported martial law to shut it down in the beginning (contrary to every other western leader).

I had the fortune to meet him and am glad we had him as PM when we did. That said, he was far from perfect and would have been a "bad" PM had he been in power in any other time in our history.

His pig-headedness and arrogance also prevented us from finding a lasting solution to the whole Quebec independence question, since he was so wedded to his own personal vision of how things should be that he couldn't entertain any other options. The 1982 Constitution, however good it might be in some respects, remains very problematic with respect to the Quebec issue, and when a bunch of people tried to fix things (Mulroney, Bourassa and co.), he worked behind the scenes to torpedo every single attempt they made because he did not want to see others succeed where he himself had failed. He is one of the main people responsible for us having to go through the 1995 referendum.

shreddog · #85 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 1:51 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Prorogations

He even did it with his majority government last fall.

Yup, plural! That said, Harpo still has to prorogue parliament 2 more times to equal Chretien ... who had a majority every time he did it!

shreddog · #86 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 1:56 PM**

FWIW I do think Pearson was the "best" for only because I think he was the only PM who would have been relevant and effective at any time in our history.

Had he been PM in the 1870's or the 1970's I would like to believe that he would have a good PM.

Though there is a bit of a soft spot for the Judicial MILF!

Link - the ordinary politician

esquire · #87 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 1:56 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by shreddog

Chretien was an absolute bully, both in life and in politics. Totally unacceptable, however it got him elected and egg on Paul's face. It's interesting that you would find him as a hero.

I don't think you can really fault a politician for being aggressive. Not too many pushovers get elected to high office.

Chretien did a good job as PM. I don't think his legacy can be defined by suggestions that he didn't play nice while working his way up to the Langevin Block.

shreddog · #88 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 1:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acajack

His pig-headedness and arrogance also prevented us from finding a lasting solution to the whole Quebec independence question, since he was so wedded to his own personal vision of how things should be that he couldn't entertain any other options. The 1982 Constitution, however good it might be in some respects, remains very problematic with respect to the Quebec issue, and when a bunch of people tried to fix things (Mulroney, Bourassa and co.), he worked behind the scenes to torpedo every single attempt they made because he did not want to see others succeed where he himself had failed. He is one of the main people responsible for us having to go through the 1995 referendum.

True dat! While truly an intellectual giant, his arrogance has cost us.

shreddog · #89 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 2:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't think you can really fault a politician for being aggressive. Not too many pushovers get elected to high office.

Chretien did a good job as PM. I don't think his legacy can be defined by suggestions that he didn't play nice while working his way up to the Langevin Block.

Oh I agree, politics is a blood sport and he was excellent at it. While some fault him for his GST lie, I personally rate him as medicore since it was under his watch - and due to his incompetence - that we nearly lost Canada. Whereas Trudeau was arrogant wrt the Quebec issue, Chretien was just oblivious to it.

Acajack · #90 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 2:10 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by shreddog

Oh I agree, politics is a blood sport and he was excellent at it. .

Chrétien was awesome at the political game. One of the best I have ever seen.

He should write The Art of Politics like Sun Tzu wrote The Art of War or Donald Trump wrote The Art of the Deal!

HomeInMyShoes · #91 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 2:59 PM**

Times were different in Trudeaus' era as well. I am sure the media of today would not be as kind to him along the way. Not that the media was kind to him in his day, but the stupidity of the media is at an all-time high.

MolsonExport · #92 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 5:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by shreddog

Chretien was an absolute bully, both in life and in politics. Totally unacceptable, however it got him elected and egg on Paul's face. It's interesting that you would find him as a hero.

It's interesting that you would find him to be this, and also that you would find it interesting that I found him otherwise. Interesting, it is.

Bullies are almost always closeted cowards; people that back down in the face of a real adversary. Chretien did not back down; on the contrary he held fast (which was, I suppose, his Achilles heel). He made hay out of so many adversaries, all of which made the same mistake of underestimating his resolve.

Doug · #93 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 5:56 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Chretien did not back down; on the contrary he held fast (which was, I suppose, his Achilles heel). He made hay out of so many adversaries, all of which made the same mistake of underestimating his resolve.

Is Harper any different?

Doug · #94 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 5:59 PM**

I was brought up with a hate on for Pearson. My great uncle was a Diefenbaker appointee as the Canadian Ambassador to the UK. Pearson replaced him because "he wasn't of Loyalist Stock."

shreddog · #95 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 7:46 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

...Bullies are almost always closeted cowards; people that back down in the face of a real adversary. Chretien did not back down; on the contrary he held fast (which was, I suppose, his Achilles heel)...

Bill Clement was (is?) an anti-poverty protester nearly half the size of Chretien. He was standing in front of Chretien preventing him from getting into his limo, but did not physically touch or harm Chretien.

Chretien, grabbed Bill by the neck and chin and threw him to the ground.

If you or I did that, we'd be charged with assault.

Chretien was not defending himself, his family nor any defensless puppies. He just didn't like being heckled.

He was a bully. Just as you defined it.

BTW, is he also your hero since Chretien condoned spraying peaceful protestors with pepper spray??

And yes, i do find it interesting that a so-called progressive academic finds a bully to be a hero.

shreddog · #96 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 7:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug

Is Harper any different?

To my knowledge, Harpo has not physically harmed anyone nor condonned spraying protestors with pepper spray. He's a policy wonk and does all his "bullying" in that arena.

MolsonExport · #97 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 8:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by shreddog

Bill Clement was (is?) an anti-poverty protester nearly half the size of Chretien. He was standing in front of Chretien preventing him from getting into his limo, but did not physically touch or harm Chretien.

Chretien, grabbed Bill by the neck and chin and threw him to the ground.

If you or I did that, we'd be charged with assault.

Chretien was not defending himself, his family nor any defensless puppies. He just didn't like being heckled.

He was a bully. Just as you defined it.

BTW, is he also your hero since Chretien condoned spraying peaceful protestors with pepper spray??

And yes, i do find it interesting that a so-called progressive academic finds a bully to be a hero.

well you can read into my comments more or less as you like to fit into your preconceived notions.

Acajack · #98 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 8:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by shreddog

Bill Clement was (is?) an anti-poverty protester nearly half the size of Chretien. He was standing in front of Chretien preventing him from getting into his limo, but did not physically touch or harm Chretien.

Chretien, grabbed Bill by the neck and chin and threw him to the ground.

If you or I did that, we'd be charged with assault.

Chretien was not defending himself, his family nor any defensless puppies. He just didn't like being heckled.

He was a bully. Just as you defined it.

BTW, is he also your hero since Chretien condoned spraying peaceful protestors with pepper spray??

And yes, i do find it interesting that a so-called progressive academic finds a bully to be a hero.

Jean Chrétien actually was initially charged with assault in this case, but the charges were later dropped.

Bill Clennett also lost a tooth when he was pushed to the ground.

shreddog · #99 Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 8:19 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

well you can read into my comments more or less as you like to fit into your preconceived notions.

Ha ha, in all honestly I've never thought about you enough to have any pre-conceived notions! Though your posts are interesting ...

Nelju · #**100** Posted **Oct 7, 2014, 8:30 PM**

Harper has done an excellent job. He still get my vote in the next election.