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  #81  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 12:02 AM
berzerkled berzerkled is offline
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  #82  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 12:06 AM
Greco Roman Greco Roman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feepa View Post
Dear Winnipeg,

Its nice to have dreams, but thats all this is.

Signed,

The NHL.
Dear Edmonton,

It's nice to have a team that has numerous private investors that would soften the loss should one of them decide to opt out. What works in Edmonton can work in Winnipeg given the chance that is.

Signed,

The City of Winnipeg.
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  #83  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Albertaboy View Post
Dear Edmonton,

It's nice to have a team that has numerous private investors that would soften the loss should one of them decide to opt out. What works in Edmonton can work in Winnipeg.

Signed,

The City of Winnipeg.
Then why didn't it?
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  #84  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 12:15 AM
Greco Roman Greco Roman is offline
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Originally Posted by SHOFEAR View Post
Then why didn't it?
I don't have the answer to that; I'm sure there was a reason for gov't involvment at the time. But now provincial and civic governments want nothing to do with sports franchises, and I don't blame them. Gov't involvment with sporting teams is a bust, as we found out the hard way.

But that was then and this is now. We can learn from the past to make a better futur.

Last edited by Greco Roman; Jan 29, 2007 at 12:21 AM.
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  #85  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Albertaboy View Post
I don't have the answer to that; I'm sure there was a reason for gov't involvment at the time. But now provincial and civic governments want nothing to do with sports franchises, and I don't blame them. Gov't involvment with sporting teams is a bust, as we found out the hard way.

But that was then and this is now. We can learn from the past to make a better futur.
I have two possible reasons.

1) The coorporate sector didn't have the money
2) Those that had the money realized there was zero chance of breaking even

If anybody suggest that Bettman woke up one day and said "come hell or high water the Jets are moving" is delusional.

Yes Winnipeg was in a much different place ten years ago. But so was the NHL. That 20 some million dollar payroll that was average is now pushing 40 and rising.

I've brought this up before but Winnipeg's savior Mark Chipman is your worst enemy. Right now he has a license to print money. It costs nothing to run a AHL team and he will never give a sweethart deal to another ownership group to use the MTS center. Unless this guy is sitting on a fortune or is the largest philanthropist anyone has ever seen, there is no way he would be willing to give it up.
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  #86  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 12:59 AM
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Originally Posted by SHOFEAR View Post
As always, everybody forgets that just about everybody in Milwaukee and Madison supports the Packers. That means that for all purposes they are a mid sized market team.

Why would the NHL allow expansion into a market whose business plan for staying afloat could depend on taking revenue from other teams? With Winnipeg what you see is what you get. Your going to have the same number of fans in year 15 as you did in year one accounting for market growth. With other non-traditional markets you have the potential (if done correctly with enough time) where you can incraese your fan base many fold. Now if I was commish, and somebody came to me wanting to purchase the rights to an expansion franchise and their business model was to rely on handouts, in the best of times, I'd run away as fast as possible.
Thanks for not even remotely answering my question, but still pointing out flaws.
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  #87  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 1:02 AM
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Winnipeg will get another NHL team, and it'll happen within the next 5 years. i wouldn't gamble that it'll be an expansion team, i would gamble on some team in some market in the States moves. There is no Gretzky left to sell hockey to the states. thats the problem. there isn't one player out there with enough charisma and charm to put fans in the seats.

the NFL has Terrel Owens, the NBA has tonnes of players (Kobe Bryant, Steve Nash, Allen Iverson, Shaq...), golf has Tiger Woods, and now MLS has David Beckham. but who does the NHL have? Sydney Crosby? Alexander Ovechkin? neither of those to (IMO) has the skill to do what Gretzky did.

Winnipeg has the support to show the world that it doesn't deserve to be looked over. Hell, if it wasn't for a radio station in Winnipeg a couple years back, Motley Crue wouldn't have played in Calgary, Edmonton, or Winnipeg. That may be compairing apples and oranges, but if they rally that kind of support for a rock band to come to town, imagine what will happen when another team goes up to move from its home (my venture would be Tampa Bay or Florida)...
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  #88  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 1:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Distill3d View Post
the NFL has Terrel Owens, the NBA has tonnes of players (Kobe Bryant, Steve Nash, Allen Iverson, Shaq...), golf has Tiger Woods, and now MLS has David Beckham. but who does the NHL have? Sydney Crosby? Alexander Ovechkin? neither of those to (IMO) has the skill to do what Gretzky did.
They could make the goals bigger to inflate their stats.
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  #89  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 1:09 AM
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Here's some commentary to the gentlemen from Alberta. Winnipeg lost the Jets because the city and owners waited too long to build a new arena. By the time people got serious about it, the dollar was in the toilet, hockey seemed to be catching on in the States and salaries were out of control. If either Calgary or Edmonton hadn't built their new arenas, BOTH would have headed south. The fact is both teams barely made it out of the nineties alive. Calgary and Edmonton have no reason to be smug.

Winnipeg now has a superior arena to both Calgary and Edmonton, the dollar appears stable and hockey in the US is done.

As far as ownership goes, Winnipeg has an ownership group in place that would be considered serious money in any market; and it doesn't consist of 30 owners like in Edmonton.

Head offices.. Winnipeg has as many as Edmonton.
Ticket prices... The prices True North charged for an exhibition game between Edmonton and Phoenix last fall were completely in line with what current markets charge, and it sold out quickly. My seats were $100 bucks apiece, and I for one will not hesitate to buy season tickets.

Winnipeg CAN afford the NHL, and its return appears to be just around the corner.

Go Jets Go!

Last edited by P&M40BELOW; Jan 29, 2007 at 1:14 AM.
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  #90  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 1:29 AM
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Winnipeg now has a superior arena to both Calgary and Edmonton
But yet the ball is rolling quickly on a 18 500seat/80 box arena in Edmonton and Ken king has dropped hints for the same in Calgary. Winnipeg took a big step with the MTS center, but Edmonton and Calgary are about to take a couple steps.
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  #91  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 1:56 AM
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SHO, we don't really know what the size of the Edmonton stadium will be. I posted this in the other thread, but facts are always handy to have:
Code:
RNK 	TEAM 		TOTAL 		AVG 
1	Montreal 	872,194		21,273
2	Tampa Bay 	840,887		20,509
3	Detroit 	822,706		20,066
4	Philadelphia 	805,783		19,653
5	Ottawa 		798,453		19,474
6	Toronto 	795,747		19,408
7	Calgary 	790,849		19,289
8	Vancouver 	763,830		18,630
9	Minnesota 	761,614		18,575
10	NY Rangers 	743,848		18,142
11	Colorado 	738,287		18,007
12	Los Angeles 	731,475		17,840
13	Dallas 		730,979		17,828
14	Buffalo 	693,329		16,910
15	Edmonton 	690,143		16,832
16	San Jose 	690,095		16,831
17	Columbus 	688,655		16,796
18	Boston 		664,673		16,211
19	Florida 	656,587		16,014
20	Pittsburgh 	647,975		15,804
21	Carolina 	639,454		15,596
22	Phoenix 	638,871		15,582
23	Atlanta 	637,578		15,550
24	Anaheim 	619,380		15,106
25	Nashville 	591,556		14,428
26	New Jersey 	583,448		14,230
27	St. Louis 	582,742		14,213
28	Washington 	570,113		13,905
29	Chicago 	546,075		13,318
30	NY Islanders 	516,973		12,609
Looks like a Winnipeg team that pulls in 15,000 would be limited to being near the bottom of the league for attendance, which means that ticket prices would need to be higher for the team to bring in enough revenue to be competitive.
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  #92  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 2:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHOFEAR View Post
Then why didn't it?
in 1996, it would have been financial suicide to buy the jets as a private owner...remember that even vancouver, calgary and edmonton were barely scraping by at that time....edmonton in particular was able to narrowly weather the storm with their 50 man ownership throng, but winnipeg wasnt as lucky....they were very close to saving the team, but winnipeg was not in their plans as they went after the american market...they did little to help....unlike today and the penguins.


times have changed, both in the NHL and in canada....all of the canadian cities are now profitable and very viable....edmonton is way better off today than it was in 1996, just as winnipeg would be....the league has changed as well as the strong canadian economy in all the NHL cities has taken the canadian cities from the brink a few years ago to profitable and stable...this is why today that winnipeg can be viable as well....the situation of all canadian cities has improved...as has winipeg's.

how quickly we forget that only a few sort years ago edmonton and calgary and vancouver were all perrenial losers and struggling financially...it has only been recently that the tables have turned...that is why winnipeg can now be considered...if the conditions were the same as in in 1996, we would lose them again.

i am not sure i would claim that the MTS centre is better than the arenas in calgary or edmonton.
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  #93  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 2:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m0nkyman View Post
SHO, we don't really know what the size of the Edmonton stadium will be. I posted this in the other thread, but facts are always handy to have:
Code:
RNK 	TEAM 		TOTAL 		AVG 
1	Montreal 	872,194		21,273
2	Tampa Bay 	840,887		20,509
3	Detroit 	822,706		20,066
4	Philadelphia 	805,783		19,653
5	Ottawa 		798,453		19,474
6	Toronto 	795,747		19,408
7	Calgary 	790,849		19,289
8	Vancouver 	763,830		18,630
9	Minnesota 	761,614		18,575
10	NY Rangers 	743,848		18,142
11	Colorado 	738,287		18,007
12	Los Angeles 	731,475		17,840
13	Dallas 		730,979		17,828
14	Buffalo 	693,329		16,910
15	Edmonton 	690,143		16,832
16	San Jose 	690,095		16,831
17	Columbus 	688,655		16,796
18	Boston 		664,673		16,211
19	Florida 	656,587		16,014
20	Pittsburgh 	647,975		15,804
21	Carolina 	639,454		15,596
22	Phoenix 	638,871		15,582
23	Atlanta 	637,578		15,550
24	Anaheim 	619,380		15,106
25	Nashville 	591,556		14,428
26	New Jersey 	583,448		14,230
27	St. Louis 	582,742		14,213
28	Washington 	570,113		13,905
29	Chicago 	546,075		13,318
30	NY Islanders 	516,973		12,609
Looks like a Winnipeg team that pulls in 15,000 would be limited to being near the bottom of the league for attendance, which means that ticket prices would need to be higher for the team to bring in enough revenue to be competitive.
Everyone knows that those numbers you are showing are cooked. There is a big difference between tickets distributed and paid attendance. In Phili they are panicing, because even though they have a large season ticket base no-one is actually showing up to the games this year. Next year could be a dissaster.

In Phoenix they are only getting 8-9,000 actually attending the games. A group resently went to a Coyote game and were offered 1/2 price on premium seats, plus food vouchers, because there was more than ten of them.

What Winnipeg's MTS Centre is missing is 2,000 nose bleed seats that most teams charge $10 - $12 for. $15,100 seats sold out every night can more than compete with the majority of cities that currently have teams.

Final note: Many people have pointed out that the areas that have been built in the last ten years are too big, and are in fact hurting the NHL and the NBA. Both games are meant to be played in more intimate settings. Empty seats don't create demand; just ask the Argos.

Last edited by P&M40BELOW; Jan 29, 2007 at 2:59 AM.
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  #94  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 2:54 AM
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Originally Posted by P&M40BELOW View Post

Winnipeg now has a superior arena to both Calgary and Edmonton, the dollar appears stable and hockey in the US is done.
Yes, agreed, your arena is nice(r) (then calgary or Edmonton, for the time being), but the capacity isn't.
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  #95  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 2:55 AM
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Originally Posted by m0nkyman View Post
Looks like a Winnipeg team that pulls in 15,000 would be limited to being near the bottom of the league for attendance, which means that ticket prices would need to be higher for the team to bring in enough revenue to be competitive.
the difference is that 15 000 in winnipeg would actually be 15 000 people...the NHL is notorious for misrepresenting their attendance figures...they count all ticket given away, not sold..so 2 for 1 deals, corporate give aways and the like, which are substantial in many markets are all counted....the revenues from concessions, parking, marketing, t.v. and such, which are based on actual attendance are affected by this.

i have said this before....i went to 2 games in atlanta last year and one in phoenix.....in all three the announced attendance was more than 15 000 but the actual crowds ranged from 5 000 to 7 000 in atlanta to 10 000 in phoenix......and tickets were 10 dollars a piece for weekend games in atlanta.....

in phoenix, i got 2 tickets against the reigning champions on a saturday in the playoff stretch for $25 total, and that included 2 beach blankets and 2 hot dogs and 2 drinks.

what kind of revenue do you think the phoenix owners are pulling in compared to 15 000 full price tickets with actual people in the seats.
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  #96  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 2:57 AM
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Originally Posted by SHOFEAR View Post
But yet the ball is rolling quickly on a 18 500seat/80 box arena in Edmonton and Ken king has dropped hints for the same in Calgary. Winnipeg took a big step with the MTS center, but Edmonton and Calgary are about to take a couple steps.
i hope so...that would be great for both teams.
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  #97  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 3:00 AM
Greco Roman Greco Roman is offline
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I love how the whole country is wagging their index fingers at the city. It makes me feel so proud to be Canadian and to share in their wonderful nature towards Winnipeg
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  #98  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 3:02 AM
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sounds like we got a winner here winnerpeg
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  #99  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 3:03 AM
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I love how the whole country is wagging their index fingers at the city. It makes me feel so proud to be Canadian and to share in their wonderful nature towards Winnipeg
least were not toronto
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  #100  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2007, 3:06 AM
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Just for fun here's some NHL related metro populations: (2005 estimates - in millions)

18.7 NY-NJ
12.9 LA
9.4 Chicago
5.8 Philidelphia
5.8 Dallas
5.4 Miami
5.3 Toronto
5.2 Washington DC
5.2 Houston
4.9 Atlanta
4.4 Detroit
4.4 Boston
3.8 Phoenix
3.6 Montreal
3.1 Twin Cities
2.7 St. L
2.6 Tampa
2.3 Pittsburgh
2.3 Denver
2.0 Portland
1.9 Kansas City
1.9 Vancouver
1.7 Columbus
1.4 Nashville
1.4 Raleigh - Durham
1.1 Oklahoma City
1.1 Buffalo
1.1 Ottawa
1.0 Calgary
1.0 Edmonton
0.6 Winnipeg (0.7 might be more accurate?)
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