Will the Migration from "Snowbelt" to "Sunbelt" Reverse in the U.S.?

[pj3000]

Public transportation is for students and immigrants.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by pj3000

Public transportation is for students and immigrants.

And the poor. In Europe and Japan, public transit is for everyone.

Example- The Ruhr area of Germany, with a bunch of blah, semi-depressed mid-sized cities, is building 300 km of Stadtbahn, which is basically grade-separated, high frequency light rail that runs underground in city centers (imagine MUNI in SF or the Green Line in Boston but modern and fast).

This is on top of the 39 (!) existing Stadtbahn lines, none of which existed 40 years ago, and all of which provide fast, frequent, modern service. And this isn't counting the dozens of high frequency S-Bahn (commuter rail) lines, which also run underground in like a dozen Ruhr city centers.

And Germany supposedly has crap service compared to Japan.

[Sun Belt]

Why are we comparing American transit to Europe or Japan?

Americans drive cars because we have space and it's affordable. Americans have chosen to live an auto dependent life-style. Americans would rather spend their money towards car ownership than bus service everywhere with 5 minute headways.

Crawford is right in that there are like 5 cities in America where driving a car is miserable or unaffordable so people choose to take transit. Some have made this choice because [they have no other choice] they can't afford the expenses of living in an urban environment and owning a car -- and for some they own a car, but have made the choice to park it at a park n ride and commute to the city via transit.

Even those 5 cities where transit is decent, they have really bad traffic because everybody in the suburbs or everybody outside of the dense urban core rely cars for their daily activities. Those upper middle class people that take the train into the city via Metro North, still own cars they're just parked in some lot/garage in Connecticut.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

Why are we comparing American transit to Europe or Japan?

Because those are the only other major first world population centers on the planet. Those are the most comparable regions by population/wealth. Seems silly to compare to Zimbabwe or Honduras.

I guess you could also compare to Canada/Australia, but they still have objectively much better transit.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by Crawford

And I agree that Duke is a fantastic university, but it's dominated by students from elsewhere that are there for four years, then leave. They generally aren't staying in the Southeast, so the benefits of hosting such an elite institution are muted.

North Carolina, especially in the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill region is attracting many highly educated [or is in the process of educating these people] and retaining them. It's a high growth low(er) cost state. Places like the R.T.P. has been an incredible asset for the state.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

North Carolina, especially in the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill region is attracting many highly educated [or is in the process of educating these people] and retaining them. It's a high growth low(er) cost state. Places like the R.T.P. has been an incredible asset for the state.

The Research Triangle is booming, but not because of Duke. Durham is actually the poorest, least desirable part of Research Triangle.

Most of that high-tech, high growth stuff is around Raleigh-Cary area, and probably more due to UNC and NC State (and really due to SAS, which has a gigantic presence). Duke isn't really even tech-oriented.

[Baronvonellis]

[QUOTE=Crawford;8118890]Duke is elite, but mostly people from NY/NJ and environs. Vanderbilt and Emory are very good but not elite. UF and UNC are good but not top-tier state universities. And UM (I assume you mean Miami) is decent but not really in the conversation.
QUOTE]

UF (University of Florida) is ranked 9th best Public University in the US so yes it is a top tier. It's a problem when I'm trying to get jobs in the north as no one here knows about it. It is a very prestigious school, the best Public in Florida a state of 21 million people. The 3rd most populous state in the US.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Baronvonellis

UF (University of Florida) is ranked 9th best Public University in the US so yes it is a top tier. It's a problem when I'm trying to get jobs in the north as no one here knows about it. It is a very prestigious school, the best Public in Florida a state of 21 million people. The 3rd most populous state in the US.

No public university is even ranked in the Top 20 universities.

If you want to say Florida is one of the better public universities, sure, but it isn't one of the best overall American universities.

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by JManc

In a region that stretches from N. Dakota to Ohio? No.

Sunbelt more or less describes warmer, sunny cities that saw explosive growth post WW2 which includes California and then the rest of the sunbelt as their economies developed. Sunbelt cities tend to have a similar look and feel. LA, Atlanta and Houston "feel" more alike than anyone of them do to Chicago, Boston or Detroit.

Eh, I don't think LA resembles anything. It's the one city that's kind of in its own category. The comparison to newer cities or older cities never makes sense.

A large part of La looks old and very dense compared to places like Atlanta or Houston.

[JManc]

Anyone actually take the subway/ rail regularly in cities in the US outside of New York or DC? For the most part, they're pretty nasty. And we wonder why people prefer to drive. They're conveyances for vagrants...and smell like shit (literally). I hate when my wife rides the Metro Rail to meet me for lunch sometimes because it often involves some skeeve staring at her chest or hitting her up for change. You really don't see this in Europe or Japan. I've ridden on systems all over the US and it's the same scenario everywhere you go...people with shit social skills making everyone else around them feel uncomfortable. Yeah, that's what we want on our 7AM commute to work...

[Baronvonellis]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Who do you think migrates to Florida? It's old folks. If you're talking about a reverse in migration, you're talking about fast-growing places like Naples.

You don't seem to know much about Florida. Yes, there are old people, but there lots of young people that move there from the North all the time for the warm weather and beaches as well. Not everyone cares for snow every year. My parents moved from Wisconsin to Florida in their 20's. Myself and all my friends grew up in Ft. Myers so there lots of young people as well. Your painting with a real broad brush. That's like saying all of New York is Italian mafia or something if you want to sterotype a whole region. Or the Midwest is all blue collar factory workers.

[pj3000]

Originally Posted by Crawford

And the poor. In Europe and Japan, public transit is for everyone.

Example- The Ruhr area of Germany, with a bunch of blah, semi-depressed mid-sized cities, is building 300 km of Stadtbahn, which is basically grade-separated, high frequency light rail that runs underground in city centers (imagine MUNI in SF or the Green Line in Boston but modern and fast).

This is on top of the 39 (!) existing Stadtbahn lines, none of which existed 40 years ago, and all of which provide fast, frequent, modern service. And this isn't counting the dozens of high frequency S-Bahn (commuter rail) lines, which also run underground in like a dozen Ruhr city centers.

And Germany supposedly has crap service compared to Japan.

Commies!

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

Crawford is right in that there are like 5 cities in America where driving a car is miserable or unaffordable so people choose to take transit.

I find driving more miserable in cities that don't have good/highly utilized transit systems. Miami/South Florida, Houston...

[Baronvonellis]

Originally Posted by Crawford

No public university is even ranked in the Top 20 universities.

If you want to say Florida is one of the better public universities, sure, but it isn't one of the best overall American universities.

What you wrote was UF isn't a top tier State university. Now your saying overall. Yes, it is a top tier State university. State universities are public, it's the same. I'm not saying private. UF isn't private.

[Vlajos]

Originally Posted by JManc

Anyone actually take the subway/ rail regularly in cities in the US outside of New York or DC? For the most part, they're pretty nasty. And we wonder why people prefer to drive. They're conveyances for vagrants...and smell like shit (literally). I hate when my wife rides the Metro Rail to meet me for lunch sometimes because it often involves some skeeve staring at her chest or hitting her up for change. You really don't see this in Europe or Japan. I've ridden on systems all over the US and it's the same scenario everywhere you go...people with shit social skills making everyone else around them feel uncomfortable. Yeah, that's what we want on our 7AM commute to work...

Yes, I ride CTA trains every day. I'm far from the only person getting on the stop near my house and I live in an expensive (for Chicago standards) very family oriented area of Chicago. Lots of high income people are on the train with me.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by JManc

Anyone actually take the subway/ rail regularly in cities in the US outside of New York or DC?

yep.

since my bike accident 2 weeks ago, i've been taking the el to work everyday here in chicago, and i will be doing so until my right arm is healed enough to ride again.

generally speaking, it's far from nasty.

have i come across the occasional vagrant who has clearly pissed/shit himself on the el? of course, but i have to imagine that the same thing occurs from time to time in NYC and DC as well, unless those cities have discovered some magical way to circumvent the US constitution to prohibit homeless people from riding their transit systems.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by JManc

Anyone actually take the subway/ rail regularly in cities in the US outside of New York or DC? For the most part, they're pretty nasty. And we wonder why people prefer to drive. They're conveyances for vagrants...and smell like shit (literally). I hate when my wife rides the Metro Rail to meet me for lunch sometimes because it often involves some skeeve staring at her chest or hitting her up for change. You really don't see this in Europe or Japan. I've ridden on systems all over the US and it's the same scenario everywhere you go...people with shit social skills making everyone else around them feel uncomfortable. Yeah, that's what we want on our 7AM commute to work...

It's very different in urban cities, and semi-urban cities like mine (Seattle). The demographics of transit users aren't much different than overall. You can see weird things on transit but generally it's fine. Rush hours are overwhelmingly workers.

[JManc]

Chicago is one of those cities like NY as far as transit. The Blue Line reminds me of the Tube in in London in a lot of ways except freezing your ass off on the platform.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by JManc

Chicago is one of those cities like NY as far as transit.

well, you only excluded NYC and DC in you initial post, so..........


and chicago isn't really like NYC as far as transit.

no US city is like NYC when it comes to transit.

NYC is on a whole different level all by itself.

Originally Posted by JManc

except freezing your ass off on the platform.

as they say in minnesota, there's no such thing as bad weather, only inadequate clothing.

those who are cold standing on an el platform on a january morning are cold either by choice or ignorance.

those of us who have been doing this for decades have gotten pretty fucking good at it, despite the disbelief from the thin-blooded.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

well, you only excluded NYC and DC in you initial post, so..........

They are easier to type (initials). Just assume when I say NYC and DC, I also mean Chicago.

As for as being cold... when you've been in Texas as long as I have, you wuss right out when it gets cold. My wife is freaking out over 60 degree weather in March.

Originally Posted by UpThere

I hope you didnt buy in houston.

??

[Baronvonellis]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

well, you only excluded NYC and DC in you initial post, so..........


and chicago isn't really like NYC as far as transit.

no US city is like NYC when it comes to transit.

NYC is on a whole different level all by itself.






as they say in minnesota, there's no such thing as bad weather, only inadequate clothing.

those who are cold standing on an el platform on a january morning are cold either by choice or ignorance.

those of us who have been doing this for decades have gotten pretty fucking good at it, despite the disbelief from the thin-blooded.

Yea, I must be one of the thin-blooded. Even with a shirt, sweater, huge coat, arctic hat, gloves, long underwear, I'll still be pretty miserable standing on a platform in January or Feburary haha. And I'm part Norwegian so it should be in my DNA, but I just can't stand cold. Would it kill the CTA to put more than 1 heater on each platform or god forbid cover the platforms so they aren't exposed to wind, rain, and snow. Restaurants have those portable heater things they put up. That's what's nice about a subway, you don't have to be exposed to rain snow and cold in a tunnel.