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  #44401  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 3:02 PM
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Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
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Originally Posted by ardecila View Post
The other lot, though, is slated for a 2-story Roots Pizza. Which sucks, and not just because the pizza will be terrible.
Roots Pizza seems to divide opinions quite sharply. i've heard some rave about it, and others say that it's inedible garbage.

i myself quite like it, but it is certainly a different kind of pizza animal with that malt-infused crust.

it's not a go-to pizzeria for us, but it's good every now and then for something different.

i fucking love the pizza diversity of this town! all glory to you, Pizza God!
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Last edited by Steely Dan; Mar 15, 2019 at 3:28 PM.
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  #44402  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 5:22 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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I remember having a stupid argument several years ago on here over whether Wicker Park and Logan Square will ever match Lincoln Park and Lakeview in terms of market prices:

Quote:
Blue Line Boom: Condo Prices In Wicker Park, Logan Square Outpacing Lincoln Park, Lakeview

MAR 15, 2019 8:46AM CDT

AJ LaTrace
@ajlatrace

LOGAN SQUARE — If the booming neighborhoods along the Blue Line seem to be more expensive than lakefront areas like Lincoln Park and Lakeview, there’s some truth to it.

New numbers from real estate research company Integra Realty Resources show that the combined median listing price of condos for sale in Wicker Park and Logan Square is $535,000, a substantially higher figure than Lakeview and Lincoln Park’s combined median list price of $490,000.

Additionally, the combined median price of condos for sale in Logan Square and Wicker Park is higher than the current median list price of $520,000 for Downtown condos.

But there’s some important context to keep in mind, said Ron DeVries, senior managing director of Integra Realty Resources’ Chicago operations: Condo stock varies dramatically between these areas. While sellers are asking more in Logan Square and Wicker Park for condos, buyers are generally getting more space per square foot.

“If you look at the data in Lincoln Park and Lakeview, it’s older, smaller condos,” says DeVries. “Price per pound, you’ll get more for your money over in Logan Square.”

When it comes to detached single-family homes, the pendulum shifts in the opposite direction. The combined median list price in Lakeview and Lincoln Park is nearly $2 million while Logan Square and Wicker Park’s is $975,000, IRR figures show.

The numbers also suggest that there may be a shift in preference among first-time homebuyers and new Chicago residents, agent and Luxury Living Chicago Realty CEO Aaron Galvin suggests.

With solid transit connectivity, a vibrant food and beverage scene, and newer retail and even hotel offerings, the Milwaukee Avenue corridor is equally as attractive — if not more — than lakefront neighborhoods for many condo buyers.

“The new development in the last several years has created a tremendous amount of jobs from retail to grocery stores to convenience,” Galvin said. “Not too long ago these places were thought of as food deserts.”...

More Here: https://blockclubchicago.org/2019/03...04Ygi5PRMwGx0g
Obviously the overall market prices in Logan and Wicker haven't yet surpassed what you will pay for a McMansion on Burling, but the trajectory of the market in the NW side makes parity or near parity with their Eastern analogues an inevitability IMO. There is no functional difference between living at Fullerton and Ashland and Living at Fullerton and Western. In fact, the only difference is Logan is more convenient to the freeway.

It's only a matter of time before the NW side is indistinguishable from the North side in terms of market prices, school districts, and rents. I was actually just talking to friends last night about how it's strange, the North side seems to have evaporated from all of our lives. We all lived there when we first moved here, but there's basically nothing of interest for my social circle over there anymore aside from the occasional Cubs game or trip to the beach (even then we much prefer the South Side beaches). All of the dining, nightlife, and social functions we are interested in are along the Milwaukee Corridor or in the West Loop or even Pilsen. I can't remember the last time I went out in Lincoln Park or Lakeview. Maybe a friend's rehearsal dinner at Cafe Babareba two years ago?
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  #44403  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 5:38 PM
Vlajos Vlajos is offline
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^ OOPS, poor Alderman Ramirez Rosa can't do anything about it either. Well, he could but he would have to change his policies.
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  #44404  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 7:27 PM
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Re: gentrification and anti-gentrification forces

People fighting about who gets to live where, especially when all the areas we're talking about are well over 100 years old so exactly zero "original" residents still live there always amuses me.

Ethically, what is the rationale for giving extra powers to individuals who just happen to live in one spot at this moment of time over people who want to move into that spot? I mean, isn't that the same sort of racist BS that led to redlining and anti-black covenants blocking new non-white residents moving into certain areas before the Civil Rights Era?

Either we have the freedom to move where we want, or society is creating beneficial predujices against certain groups. Racism may only apply from the powerful against the disenfranchised, but discrimination is discrimination regardless of which groups are on which side. Are modern "progressives" really advocating a return to regressive controls against certain groups just because some people don't like them?
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  #44405  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 7:32 PM
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emathias emathias is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
...
i myself quite like it, but it is certainly a different kind of pizza animal with that malt-infused crust.
...
i fucking love the pizza diversity of this town! all glory to you, Pizza God!
I've never had Roots pizza but I like different crusts. In particular, in Boise there's a local favorite (Flying Pie) that uses sourdough crust. I think similar crusts are used across the Mountain states, too.

Are there any places in Chicago that have sourdough crusts?
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  #44406  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 7:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
Roots Pizza seems to divide opinions quite sharply. i've heard some rave about it, and others say that it's inedible garbage.

i myself quite like it, but it is certainly a different kind of pizza animal with that malt-infused crust.

it's not a go-to pizzeria for us, but it's good every now and then for something different.

i fucking love the pizza diversity of this town! all glory to you, Pizza God!
I love Roots pizza. I'm from the Quad Cities and that's our QC style pizza. (Harris, Clint's, etc) Now, even in the QC there are plenty of people (like my father) who hate it and refuse to eat it. But those of us who love it get hooked for life.
Note: Growing up, none of us called it QC style. Never heard that till it came here.
https://www.rootspizza.com/our-roots
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  #44407  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 7:48 PM
moorhosj moorhosj is offline
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Originally Posted by emathias View Post
Are modern "progressives" really advocating a return to regressive controls against certain groups just because some people don't like them?
Our political system is filled with examples of the government helping out those who are negatively impacted by market forces. If we should do that (and to what extent) is a worthy discussion and should be the focus here.
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  #44408  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 7:52 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
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Originally Posted by emathias View Post

Either we have the freedom to move where we want, or society is creating beneficial predujices against certain groups. Racism may only apply from the powerful against the disenfranchised, but discrimination is discrimination regardless of which groups are on which side. Are modern "progressives" really advocating a return to regressive controls against certain groups just because some people don't like them?
We don't really have freedom to move where we want, since there are handouts given to the wealthy that give them an advantage. Most areas in most cities, it is only legal to build single family homes, which are only available if you're wealthy. Single family zoning in Chicago was created explicitly with the goal of keeping poor people away. Likewise, there are direct government payments--uneeded and unasked for--to me for about $3,200 of my property taxes and about $5,000 of my mortgage interest each year. These are not available to renters, who thus end up paying more for housing. If we removed regulations that prevent developers from building affordable housing and if we stopped giving handouts to people like me, I think we'd have a situation that I would be happy with.
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  #44409  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 7:54 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emathias View Post
Re: gentrification and anti-gentrification forces

People fighting about who gets to live where, especially when all the areas we're talking about are well over 100 years old so exactly zero "original" residents still live there always amuses me.

Ethically, what is the rationale for giving extra powers to individuals who just happen to live in one spot at this moment of time over people who want to move into that spot? I mean, isn't that the same sort of racist BS that led to redlining and anti-black covenants blocking new non-white residents moving into certain areas before the Civil Rights Era?

Either we have the freedom to move where we want, or society is creating beneficial predujices against certain groups. Racism may only apply from the powerful against the disenfranchised, but discrimination is discrimination regardless of which groups are on which side. Are modern "progressives" really advocating a return to regressive controls against certain groups just because some people don't like them?
I mean yes, that's exactly what they are doing. I've already wondered aloud on here how long it will be before someone like Rosa gets hit with a fair housing lawsuit for basing planning decisions on race. He and his staffers already already on the public record saying "too many white people are moving here", how long before someone sues him for denying them a zoning change because they are white or might sell condos to white people?

The most disgusting aspect of Rosa et Al is that gentrification is generally reducing segregation in these areas compared to city wide demographics. In other words an area that was once 90% hispanic like Logan Square is now closer to 50% Hispanic, 40% White and 10% black/Asian/other. That's a hell of a lot closer to the 30% white, 30% Hispanic, 30% blacl, 10% Asian/other citywide. In what world are areas that are almost exclusively one race or ethnicity beneficial? I thought we, as a society, decided more than half a century ago that was inherently wrong?
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  #44410  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 8:22 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum View Post
We don't really have freedom to move where we want, since there are handouts given to the wealthy that give them an advantage. Most areas in most cities, it is only legal to build single family homes, which are only available if you're wealthy. Single family zoning in Chicago was created explicitly with the goal of keeping poor people away. Likewise, there are direct government payments--uneeded and unasked for--to me for about $3,200 of my property taxes and about $5,000 of my mortgage interest each year. These are not available to renters, who thus end up paying more for housing. If we removed regulations that prevent developers from building affordable housing and if we stopped giving handouts to people like me, I think we'd have a situation that I would be happy with.
What handouts for the wealthy? Single family downzoning is exactly the kind of moronic restrictive (the exact opposite of a handout) policy nit wits like Rosa are advocating for. I mean he literally tried to downzone all of Milwaukee in his ward as if that's what's causing property values to rise when 78% of Avondale is zoned RS-3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by moorhosj View Post
Our political system is filled with examples of the government helping out those who are negatively impacted by market forces. If we should do that (and to what extent) is a worthy discussion and should be the focus here.
Again, the policies being proposed will not help out those who are "negatively impacted by market forces". Additionally anyone who doesn't get forced to move out of the neighborhood gets to reap the rewards of a developing neighborhood namely less crime, better schools, and rising property values. So what about the portion of the population that is poor but benefits from rising land values? The answer I always get to that is the bullshit "poor people can't buy houses" circular logic which is a particularly hollow line of reasoning in a city where vast swaths of town have sub 100k properties all over the place. Little Village itself is mostly owned by homeowners or small time landlords. What about those families and individuals? Shouldn't the abuelitas in Pilsen walking out of title company offices with a $800k check be entitled to the fruits of their decades of maintaining crumbling old buildings?

No, nimrods like Rosa propose permanent blight as the solution to permanent blight but are so dim that they can't even figure out an effective policy for blighting neighborhoods. Instead they propose policies that are wildly out of line with their stated goals like "let's lower rents by reducing housing supply!" as if that will do anything other than force the demand (which they have no control over) into all the existing buildings in the area.
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  #44411  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 8:50 PM
marothisu marothisu is offline
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Areas like Wicker Park, Logan Square, Bucktown, etc is akin to what happened many years ago in parts of Brooklyn. A bunch of people who either make good livings or with actual money didn't want to live in Manhattan, and chose to live elsewhere - same thing in Chicago with these areas on a smaller scale. Still large enough scale though. Median income in many of these tracts has increased by over $20,000 between 2010 and 2017.

For example, the following tract in 2010 had a median household income of $39,625. In 2017, it was $70,313 which is a 77% increase in under a decade. It went from having 127 households making 6+ figures per year in 2010 to having 432 households making 6+ figures per year in 2017.

http://www.usa.com/IL031241400.html
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  #44412  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 8:52 PM
OrdoSeclorum OrdoSeclorum is offline
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
What handouts for the wealthy? Single family downzoning is exactly the kind of moronic restrictive (the exact opposite of a handout) policy nit wits like Rosa are advocating for. I mean he literally tried to downzone all of Milwaukee in his ward as if that's what's causing property values to rise when 78% of Avondale is zoned RS-3.
.
The mortgage interest deduction and the property tax deduction for homeowners are direct cash payouts to people who own homes versus renting.

I don't care for Rosa. But the point I was addressing was that people should be free to move wherever they can afford to. I agree. I'd like to do away with the market distortions that advantage home owners and make it hard to build multifamily housing.
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  #44413  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 8:53 PM
west-town-brad west-town-brad is offline
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
I remember having a stupid argument several years ago on here over whether Wicker Park and Logan Square will ever match Lincoln Park and Lakeview in terms of market prices:
One bedroom condos are pretty rare in Logan Square/Wicker Park/Bucktown and represent a predominate condo housing type in Lincoln Park Lakeview.

This would impacts these stats.
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  #44414  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 9:39 PM
LouisVanDerWright LouisVanDerWright is offline
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Originally Posted by marothisu View Post
Areas like Wicker Park, Logan Square, Bucktown, etc is akin to what happened many years ago in parts of Brooklyn. A bunch of people who either make good livings or with actual money didn't want to live in Manhattan, and chose to live elsewhere - same thing in Chicago with these areas on a smaller scale. Still large enough scale though. Median income in many of these tracts has increased by over $20,000 between 2010 and 2017.

For example, the following tract in 2010 had a median household income of $39,625. In 2017, it was $70,313 which is a 77% increase in under a decade. It went from having 127 households making 6+ figures per year in 2010 to having 432 households making 6+ figures per year in 2017.

http://www.usa.com/IL031241400.html
My census tract has a house hold income of $32,000 in 2010, that's almost certainly not anywhere near what it is now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum View Post
The mortgage interest deduction and the property tax deduction for homeowners are direct cash payouts to people who own homes versus renting.

I don't care for Rosa. But the point I was addressing was that people should be free to move wherever they can afford to. I agree. I'd like to do away with the market distortions that advantage home owners and make it hard to build multifamily housing.
And why should homeowners have to pay taxes on mortgage interest? What I don't understand is why things like this shouldn't be deductions for homeowners when I get to write it off as a landlord.

I also don't see discouraging homeownership as a solution either. If anything the solution to the problem is for the people complaining to go out and figure out how to buy themselves if they actually want to stay put. The biggest reason why the black middle class never made the same huge household wealth gains the white middle class did after WWII is that they were largely excluded from buying in the suburbs where the vast majority of post war property value gains occurred. We should be embracing development not hating it. This is a gateway for all the people who have been left behind in the inner city to jump from the lower or middle class to a higher status in life. The best thing that could happen to reduce African American poverty in Chicago, for example, would be for places like Lawndale or Garfield Park to rapidly increase in value. There's a lot of long time property owners in those areas whose boats would be rapidly floated by a rising tide.

If there is anything I believe to be true, it's that land ownership is the most reliable route to long term wealth and financial independence. I've seen this first hand many times. What I can't support are silly homeownership scams like condos which are really just glorified apartments. But two or three flat (or I guess SFH, but that's not as effective) ownership in Chicago is a sacred tradition and something that should be opened up to as many people as possible.
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  #44415  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 9:54 PM
Via Chicago Via Chicago is offline
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Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
If there is anything I believe to be true, it's that land ownership is the most reliable route to long term wealth and financial independence.
except this notion is clouded by a healthy dose of sample bias. you happened to be in the right place at the right time and were able to profit off a cataclysmic, once in a generation (or even century) collapse that negatively impacted a far far higher proportion of the population, and the neighborhoods you invested in bounced back at unprecedented levels in record time. that confluence of factors is far from the norm, nor typical.

generally speaking, housing at best keeps up with inflation (in other words, its nothing more than a forced savings account for the vast majority of people, and in fact can often turn into a money pit given the ongoing maintenance involved)

the danger is perpetuating the notion that housing is a get rich quick scheme, rather than first and foremost simply a place to live. because thats how we got into the mess the last time.
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  #44416  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 9:56 PM
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Steely Dan Steely Dan is offline
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What I can't support are silly homeownership scams like condos
LOL!

we're now in our 4th condo, and have done well with the two previous ones that we've sold. yeah, my marina city condo that i bought in 2006 took a LOOOOOONG time to recover after the crash, but i'm very glad that i held onto it instead of bailing and taking a loss because it's now back, and then some.

would we like to own our own 3-flat in lincoln square as opposed to just a unit in one? yeah probably, but we don't make enough money to come anywhere close to qualifying for a $1.2M mortgage.

could we own a 3-flat in jefferson park or dunning? maybe, but i don't wanna live that far out. lincoln square already feels pretty damn close to the edge of bonafide chicago urbanism to me.
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  #44417  
Old Posted Mar 15, 2019, 10:17 PM
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In case anybody is wondering, I pulled the tracts in Chicago that had the highest median income change between 2010 and 2017:

1. http://www.usa.com/IL031320400.html | Loop | $160,833 MHHI | +$82,381
2. http://www.usa.com/IL031081900.html | Near North Side (Cabrini Green area) | $139,063 MHHI | +$63,813
3. http://www.usa.com/IL031832500.html | Bucktown/Lincoln Park | $116,935 | +$57,310
4. http://www.usa.com/IL031062600.html | Lakeview | $144,211 | +$55,495
5. http://www.usa.com/IL031242100.html | Ukranian Village/East Village | $125,217 | +49,384
6. http://www.usa.com/IL031221600.html | Bucktown | $107,841 | +$47,535
7. http://www.usa.com/IL031051100.html | Roscoe Village | $124,583 | $46,813
8. http://www.usa.com/IL031842200.html | Cabrini Green/Goose Island | $92,227 | +$45,679
9. http://www.usa.com/IL031070700.html | West Lincoln Park | $122,571 | +$45,283
10. http://www.usa.com/IL031841000.html | South Loop/North Bronzeville | $63,125 | +$45,000
11. http://www.usa.com/IL031050700.html | Roscoe Village | $128,676 | +$44,634
12. http://www.usa.com/IL031240200.html | Bucktown | $124,545 | +$44,188
13. http://www.usa.com/IL031831000.html | Logan Square/Bucktown | $152,794 | +$43,936
14. http://www.usa.com/IL031063100.html | Lakeview | $92,933 | +$42,725
15. http://www.usa.com/IL031280100.html | West Loop | $129,148 | +$42,273
16. http://www.usa.com/IL031240500.html | Wicker Park | $151,369 | +$40,619
17. http://www.usa.com/IL031080100.html | Gold Coast | $118,500 | +39,527
18. http://www.usa.com/IL031222200.html | Wicker Park/Logan Square | $130,990 | +$39,427
19. http://www.usa.com/IL031241500.html | Wicker Park | $123,304 | +39,099
20. http://www.usa.com/IL031062700.html | Lakeview | $135,096 | $+38,846
21. http://www.usa.com/IL031081202.html | Gold Coast | $113,798 | +$38,698
22. http://www.usa.com/IL031241200.html | Wicker Park | $104,750 | +$38,601
23. http://www.usa.com/IL031243100.html | West Town/near Ukranian Village | $101,458 | +$38,156
24. http://www.usa.com/IL031220400.html | Logan Square | $88,043 | +$37,805
25. http://www.usa.com/IL031241300.html | Wicker Park | $117,396 | +$37,741

In Cook County, there were 161 census tracts which increased their median household income by at least $20K each. In 2010, there were 79 census tracts in Cook County with $100K+ median household income. In 2017, that was 167 tracts - it over doubled.
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  #44418  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2019, 12:45 AM
moorhosj moorhosj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright View Post
Again, the policies being proposed will not help out those who are "negatively impacted by market forces". Additionally anyone who doesn't get forced to move out of the neighborhood gets to reap the rewards of a developing neighborhood namely less crime, better schools, and rising property values. So what about the portion of the population that is poor but benefits from rising land values? The answer I always get to that is the bullshit "poor people can't buy houses" circular logic which is a particularly hollow line of reasoning in a city where vast swaths of town have sub 100k properties all over the place. Little Village itself is mostly owned by homeowners or small time landlords. What about those families and individuals? Shouldn't the abuelitas in Pilsen walking out of title company offices with a $800k check be entitled to the fruits of their decades of maintaining crumbling old buildings?

No, nimrods like Rosa propose permanent blight as the solution to permanent blight but are so dim that they can't even figure out an effective policy for blighting neighborhoods. Instead they propose policies that are wildly out of line with their stated goals like "let's lower rents by reducing housing supply!" as if that will do anything other than force the demand (which they have no control over) into all the existing buildings in the area.
I wasn’t making that argument at all. People like Rosa are absolutely the problem and his “proposals” are not sulutions in any way. I am talking about the actual folks on the ground who do have difficulties dealing with this type of rapid shift. I think we could use a little more empathy towards those people and not let craven politicians like Rosa Jade our views. His positions are counter-factual, but to the renter in Logan Square who has lived there 20 years, raised kids in the neighborhood and is facing a 50% rent increase, it provides hope.
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  #44419  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2019, 12:46 AM
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Thanks for the link, makes much more sense knowing that the first floor is retail. I rather like it, smart design and concept. Here is a link from their website.

https://www.filoramotalsma.com/projects/#777-s-dearborn

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Originally Posted by The Lurker View Post
Retail will occupy the ground floor. Above will be the private residence of the architect. Heres something:

https://chicago-curbed-com.cdn.amppr...-dearborn-polk
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  #44420  
Old Posted Mar 16, 2019, 2:11 AM
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