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  #241  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2019, 3:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
What's wrong with some African Americans re-embracing elements of their African heritage, after having assimilated (by force, unlike many immigrant groups who did it by choice) to "white" English American culture?

How is that any different from say Irish-Americans five generations removed from Ireland proudly wearing and flaunting symbols of Ireland, and bringing a Gaelic phrasebook to visit Ireland, or Chinese Americans keeping Chinatowns alive, even though they may have little or no connection to the immigrants who founded those enclaves in the 1800s, or even the entire Jewish diaspora keeping traditions alive for generations and reviving traditions, like using the Hebrew language, that were nearly lost?
He said it was ironic, not necessarily negative.

Also bling and misogyny are not traditional African culture. No more than any other culture anyway.
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  #242  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2019, 3:34 AM
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Also bling and misogyny are not traditional African culture. No more than any other culture anyway.
I wasn't referring to those. I highlighted the parts that are often critiqued -- the African-style clothing, Africanized names etc. as "pseudo-African".

Some people call that inauthentic, for instance, when you have African Americans eschewing an "English" name for a name like Jamal, Tanisha, Ayeshah, etc.

But that in my eyes is at the very least no less authentic in terms of "re-connecting" to one's past than say, an Irish American who already had family assimilated to English only for five generations, who doesn't speak Gaelic, reconnecting to his/her roots by say naming his daughter Siobhan instead of Joan for instance. Or a Chinese American who no longer speaks any Chinese language but decorates her house with scrolls of Chinese paintings and other stylized symbols of identity.
     
     
  #243  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2019, 3:46 AM
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Ethnic "revivals" are actually not uncommon when the marginalized culture is given some breathing room.

Which is why for instance you have people like Irish, Welsh etc. reviving their culture after forced assimilation policies were lifted in their countries (for instance English-only policies and punishment for speaking their native tongues), French Canadians revived French-origin culture and language, many indigenous cultural revivals etc.

It's not really that ironic.

Of course this is still a separate issue from for instance fairness in other ways like socio-economic status based on treatment in employment, treatment in the justice system etc. But the cultural revival shouldn't be something to be mocked.
     
     
  #244  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2019, 4:01 AM
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What would be ironic (and a little creepy) is if black people spoke the same way as white people, dressed the same way as white people, had the exact same names as white people etc, but apparently that's what some people would prefer to see.
     
     
  #245  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2019, 1:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Ethnic "revivals" are actually not uncommon when the marginalized culture is given some breathing room.

Which is why for instance you have people like Irish, Welsh etc. reviving their culture after forced assimilation policies were lifted in their countries (for instance English-only policies and punishment for speaking their native tongues), French Canadians revived French-origin culture and language, many indigenous cultural revivals etc.

It's not really that ironic.

Of course this is still a separate issue from for instance fairness in other ways like socio-economic status based on treatment in employment, treatment in the justice system etc. But the cultural revival shouldn't be something to be mocked.
I think some people see it as ironic as it's trading in an admittedly oppressive and imposed cultural vernacular, for some of the negative traits of another, or some of the falsely perceived traits of another, or even stuff that's outdated or based on stereotypes. Even if some of that is (loosely) related to where your forebears are from.

It's as if the group I am a part of freed itself from "anglo" shackles only to rekindle with "Frenchness" by adopting a hierarchical stultified social class system fraught with inequalities and glass ceilings, went on strike with increasing and alarming regularity, staged violent Gilets Jaunes protests, and all of a sudden our waiters all became excessively snooty...
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  #246  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2019, 10:19 PM
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Some of this has calmed down in the last 2 or 3 decades but I see such phenomena as black athletes kneeling at NFL games as residua of it. So the question remains whether it is really in the interest of black people to segregate themselves from the mainstream now that the laws which segregated them have faded into history.
Oh yeah, black people are treated just the same as whites, they just choose to ostracize themselves from society by kneeling during the national anthem. LOL is this really what you're saying? There is an ABUNDANCE of data out there that shows that Blacks and Whites are not treated equally in this country. From police encounters, sentencing for crimes, health disparities...any number of societal metrics show that blacks and whites do not receive anywhere close to equal treatment in the US. THIS is what kneeling is supposed to call attention to. Laws have changed, but many of the attitudes and actions of people have not. Much of the discrimination blacks face today stem from the same ideology that enslaved them, and then permitted them to be lynched, treated like second class citizens, and so on. It's all part of the same root- namely racist southern whites who have been allowed to exert their influence in this country for far too long.
     
     
  #247  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2019, 10:28 PM
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From police encounters, sentencing for crimes, health disparities...any number of societal metrics show that blacks and whites do not receive anywhere close to equal treatment in the US.
let's also not forget how so many blacks have been shut-out from building wealth through home ownership the way that the white middle class has because whenever black people buy homes in a given area in great enough numbers, property values tend to drop because those areas are automatically seen as less desirable by those with money (white people) specifically because they have become "too black".

that's been one of the absolute toughest nuts to crack in the racial segregation game in cities like chicago. how can you legislate people to perceive real estate value in a color blind way?
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  #248  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2019, 10:50 PM
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It is ironic that at the moment when legal subjugation of African-Americans was being lifted and the civil rights movement was at its peak, in urban areas it became popular for black people to want to toss off the culture and goals of their supposed white "slave masters" and build a separate, unique society of their own manifested by wearing African-style clothing, adopting pseudo-African and Islamic names, condoning radical politics (think Black Panther Party) and evolving into an obsession with "bling", misogyny and sports in which black athletes are successful.

In places like Oakland, it has even been argued that a black dialect called "ebonics" should replace English as the language of the public schools (in the Bay Area some said the Bay Bridge was the longest bridge in the world, connecting 2 totally different societies).



The unfortunate thing for adherents to these ideas was that, outside sports and entertainment, the majority white culture still dominates America and by rejecting it, urban black people also rejected much chance of succeeding in the greater America. Imagine the plight of a student educated in "ebonics" trying to be successful on Wall Street or corporate America.

Some of this has calmed down in the last 2 or 3 decades but I see such phenomena as black athletes kneeling at NFL games as residua of it. So the question remains whether it is really in the interest of black people to segregate themselves from the mainstream now that the laws which segregated them have faded into history.
As whites, we take our cultural heritage for granted. Most of us know our history. Most African Americans do not. I totally get the attachment to Africa, Islam or whatever and the desire to forge their own identity. They don't have to be Carlton Banks to succeed in American society. Yea, the Ebonics idea was a total boneheaded move and the woman behind it was a quack.

As for kneeling at NFL games, most of us (non blacks) will never experience what just happened in Phoenix. So kneel on...
     
     
  #249  
Old Posted Jun 18, 2019, 11:21 PM
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let's also not forget how so many blacks have been shut-out from building wealth through home ownership the way that the white middle class has because whenever black people buy homes in a given area in great enough numbers, property values tend to drop because those areas are automatically seen as less desirable by those with money (white people) specifically because they have become "too black".

that's been one of the absolute toughest nuts to crack in the racial segregation game in cities like chicago. how can you legislate people to perceive real estate value in a color blind way?
It's a very insidious form of economic disenfranchisement. I'm not sure if you can legislate it away since it's just individuals acting in their own rational economic self interest. Even if you don't have a racist bone in your body, as a prospective homebuyer you have to consider how other prospective homebuyers will value your property. Individually, people are acting with no ill intent, but the result of their collective actions basically leads to segregation, economic disenfranchisement, and the wholesale destruction of neighborhoods.
     
     
  #250  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2019, 12:28 AM
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As for kneeling at NFL games, most of us (non blacks) will never experience what just happened in Phoenix. So kneel on...
I agree. Kneel on if you want to but expect to find yourself, like the original kneeler, out of work.

In America, you have the right to do many self-defeating things. Just don't complain when you've defeated yourself that it's the fault of someone else.
     
     
  #251  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2019, 2:39 AM
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I agree. Kneel on if you want to but expect to find yourself, like the original kneeler, out of work.

In America, you have the right to do many self-defeating things. Just don't complain when you've defeated yourself that it's the fault of someone else.
Colin may have been out of work regardless.

I have no idea why some people see a kneel as a bad thing when all throughout history, kneeling has been shown as a sign of respect. Seems to me some are just very sensitive, and for the wrong reasons...
     
     
  #252  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2019, 2:42 AM
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Seems to me some are just very sensitive, and for the wrong reasons...
Snowflakes are gonna snowflake.......
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  #253  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2019, 2:55 AM
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I agree. Kneel on if you want to but expect to find yourself, like the original kneeler, out of work.

In America, you have the right to do many self-defeating things. Just don't complain when you've defeated yourself that it's the fault of someone else.
I can’t wait until Boomers become an insignificant bloc in this country.
     
     
  #254  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2019, 4:25 AM
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I can’t wait until Boomers become an insignificant bloc in this country.
To be replaced by Millennials who will become protective and conservative once they become the aged home owners, parents, leaders, and bear the responsibility.

The less white this country becomes, the more disconnected it will become from black issues. White people and black people are tied at the hip going back hundreds of years. Hispanic and Asian people, not so much. They will have much less sympathy for this type of virtue signaling when they know their parents perhaps came to this country from the third world.
     
     
  #255  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2019, 11:50 AM
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To be replaced by Millennials who will become protective and conservative once they become the aged home owners, parents, leaders, and bear the responsibility.

The less white this country becomes, the more disconnected it will become from black issues. White people and black people are tied at the hip going back hundreds of years. Hispanic and Asian people, not so much. They will have much less sympathy for this type of virtue signaling when they know their parents perhaps came to this country from the third world.
Very interesting point. Also, I've seen estimates that black Americans will be the 4th largest group in America by 2050, behind whites-hispanics-asians. This will change America radically.
     
     
  #256  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2019, 12:02 PM
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To be replaced by Millennials who will become protective and conservative once they become the aged home owners, parents, leaders, and bear the responsibility.
It's a myth that people change their political affiliation as they age. It won't happen.

The Republican party, at least as currently constituted, has a few decades left, and it's done. Their base is angry, old, and dying out, and there are no more policy underpinnings, just a personality cult.
     
     
  #257  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2019, 12:29 PM
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As for kneeling at NFL games, most of us (non blacks) will never experience what just happened in Phoenix. So kneel on...
What just happened in Phoenix?
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  #258  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2019, 12:31 PM
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It's a myth that people change their political affiliation as they age. It won't happen.

The Republican party, at least as currently constituted, has a few decades left, and it's done. Their base is angry, old, and dying out, and there are no more policy underpinnings, just a personality cult.
Sounds more like wishful thinking than anything...

The election of Obama was also supposed to mark the death of the Republican Party and then look what happened.
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  #259  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2019, 12:33 PM
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Snowflakes are gonna snowflake.......
The people who are offended by the kneeling during the national anthem aren't typically those who'd be described as "snowflakes", I'd say.
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  #260  
Old Posted Jun 19, 2019, 12:34 PM
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I have no idea why some people see a kneel as a bad thing when all throughout history, kneeling has been shown as a sign of respect. ..
I don't really care either way, but I think it's pretty clear that the people who kneel during the anthem aren't doing as a sign of respect. Anyway, it's certainly not out of respect for the anthem, the flag, etc.
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