Rural Atlantic Canadian Development Thread

[gehrhardt]

Originally Posted by gehrhardt

So, the consensus in Salisbury now is that the mystery development by the highway is a Needs/Fast Fuel station with an A&W.

Construction seems to be progressing quickly. This morning they had delivered two large underground fuel tanks. The lot has been levelled and there are large lights set up for working after dark.

Just an update...

The rumours were pretty much true. There is now a sign up announcing the new Sobey's Express / Shell / A&W on site.

As for progress, the tanks are buried, the foundation has been poured, and most of the parking lot has been paved. The supports for the fuel pump awning are there, along with the bases for the lights in the parking lot.

Just yesterday, some of the structural steel started going up. It seems to be progressing quite quickly, even with the recent cold and snowy weather.

[MonctonRad]

Photo, courtesy of the T&T today:



I appreciate how highway services tend to cluster together at certain exits, but this means that at the Salisbury exit from the TCH there will now be three gas stations (including a Big Stop), three accompanying convenience stores, a full service restaurant, Subway, Tim Hortons, Dairy Queen and an A&W.

Meanwhile, there is an 80 km stretch of the TCH extending westward from Salisbury with no services at all. Cars do run out of gas along this stretch. Drowsy drivers might miss the "last chance gas" signs. Might it mot have made sense to build this gas station at the Havelock exit (route 885)? This is the actual last exit before the wilderness section of the highway and would have shortened the unserviced segment of the TCH down to about 60 km or so.

Thoughts??

[macas539]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Photo, courtesy of the T&T today:



I appreciate how highway services tend to cluster together at certain exits, but this means that at the Salisbury exit from the TCH there will now be three gas stations (including a Big Stop), three accompanying convenience stores, a full service restaurant, Subway, Tim Hortons, Dairy Queen and an A&W.

Meanwhile, there is an 80 km stretch of the TCH extending westward from Salisbury with no services at all. Cars do run out of gas along this stretch. Drowsy drivers might miss the "last chance gas" signs. Might it mot have made sense to build this gas station at the Havelock exit (route 885)? This is the actual last exit before the wilderness section of the highway and would have shortened the unserviced segment of the TCH down to about 60 km or so.

Thoughts??

I agree 100%. As a resident of Salisbury, the lack of adequate traffic planning frustrates me in this village. That part of the village is chaotic with all of the current gas stations and businesses clustered together. Each establishment comes with multiple entrances and exits onto a road which lacks turning lanes. The amount of traffic weaving that is allowed to occur in such a short stretch should make any traffic engineer worth their salt cringe.

Then add summer and holiday tourist traffic into the mix and that road quickly goes from a bad dream to nightmarish proportions. I hold my breath every time I drive through that area. It's not uncommon to see one car turning left from one driveway with another vehicle turning the same direction from the opposite side of the road with an 18 wheeler almost entirely obstructing their views of oncoming traffic. Most times people just rush out in a haphazard give er' maneuver. Or drivers get so confused by the number of entrances and exits into the businesses before them they can't decide which one to use and just slam on their brakes to turn into any old driveway.

Anyway, why I agree the latest service centre should have been built further west is that the area is currently too congested and the village has no plans to address current safety issues nor do they plan to properly widen and add turning lanes on the Fredricton Rd for this new development.

[Good2go]

Originally Posted by macas539

Or drivers get so confused by the number of entrances and exits into the businesses before them they can't decide which one to use and just slam on their brakes to turn into any old driveway.

Remember when they used to paint lines and arrows on the roads to indicate lanes and their usage? And the paint was good enough that it lasted more than four months?

Good times.

[macas539]

Yes! The village paints the lines in the late Spring/early Summer and typically by Fall the lines are so faded every part of the roadway becomes fair game for all traffic and all directions.

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Meanwhile, there is an 80 km stretch of the TCH extending westward from Salisbury with no services at all. Cars do run out of gas along this stretch. Drowsy drivers might miss the "last chance gas" signs. Might it mot have made sense to build this gas station at the Havelock exit (route 885)? This is the actual last exit before the wilderness section of the highway and would have shortened the unserviced segment of the TCH down to about 60 km or so.

Thoughts??

It's 80km stretch during the day. At night, it's more like 140km stretch, since Youngs Cove and Gagetown stops are closed so you basically are going from Oromocto to Salisbury.

The problem is, there simply isn't anything IN that 80km stretch to anchor services, like Salisbury has. Maybe Youngs Cove could be upgraded to a full sized proper 24H truckstop, but that would be about it.

Really, the problem is ultimately because of how the TCH was routed. If they had nudged the highway further south so it hit Sussex, then follow Route 1, there would be plenty of villages and towns to provide services along the way. But that ship sailed 20-some years ago. *sigh*

[MonctonRad]

There are at least several places along the TCH in NS & NB where I wish there were 24 hr highway service facilities like they have in Ontario. These are on remote sections of the road, and would be useful for emergency gas, emergency coffee and as a pull-off for drowsy drivers. They would be especially useful in the wintertime when driving conditions can rapidly deteriorate. People need a place to pull off the road if they are uncomfortable driving.

These rest/service stops could be located in several places including:
1) halfway between Freddy & Woodstock
2) halfway between Salisbury & Coles Island
3) on the top of the Cobequid Pass.

Any other possible locations anyone???

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Really, the problem is ultimately because of how the TCH was routed. If they had nudged the highway further south so it hit Sussex, then follow Route 1, there would be plenty of villages and towns to provide services along the way. But that ship sailed 20-some years ago. *sigh*

I don't really see this as a problem. I'll take a more direct route over one with services any day of the week. The travel time between services is well under an hour (except at night when it's a bit longer).

[L'homard]

First, there are indeed turning lanes at the Salisbury / TCH intersction, at least there were yesterday - but I agreee it's confusing and could have been done better.
Second, the free market (and the local planning authority I suppose) decides where to set up these things. If you were going to invest millions in a facility like this, would you do it at the busiest spot, or out in the woods at Havelock? I wish they were better spaced too. It's just the wrong thing to do if you are in business. These guys aren't operating charities. If I was the Salisbury rep. on the planning board, would I want this in my village, or would I suggest they invest in the neighbouring village? Not likely.
If anyone thinks it's a good idea to build this at the Havelock exit, have at 'er. The property is for sale. Go for it! Just some food for thought.

[MonctonianSentinel01]

Originally Posted by L'homard

First, there are indeed turning lanes at the Salisbury / TCH intersction, at least there were yesterday - but I agreee it's confusing and could have been done better.
Second, the free market (and the local planning authority I suppose) decides where to set up these things. If you were going to invest millions in a facility like this, would you do it at the busiest spot, or out in the woods at Havelock? I wish they were better spaced too. It's just the wrong thing to do if you are in business. These guys aren't operating charities. If I was the Salisbury rep. on the planning board, would I want this in my village, or would I suggest they invest in the neighbouring village? Not likely.
If anyone thinks it's a good idea to build this at the Havelock exit, have at 'er. The property is for sale. Go for it! Just some food for thought.

Going along with the free market........
There's also the fact that people will stop where they can grab a Tim's coffee or something to eat while they are getting fuel. Secondly there's also the fact that your business can be scooped or beaten to the finish line. Not many drivers will wait till the last drop to get gas. When they see all of the establishments they will more than likely stop. Most of the business will go to Salisbury coming from the East. I'd say it's a safer bet to compete with neighbours at a busy area where there's enough pieces of the pie for everyone rather than chance it out by yourself.

[MonctonianSentinel01]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There are at least several places along the TCH in NS & NB where I wish there were 24 hr highway service facilities like they have in Ontario. These are on remote sections of the road, and would be useful for emergency gas, emergency coffee and as a pull-off for drowsy drivers. They would be especially useful in the wintertime when driving conditions can rapidly deteriorate. People need a place to pull off the road if they are uncomfortable driving.

These rest/service stops could be located in several places including:
1) halfway between Freddy & Woodstock
2) halfway between Salisbury & Coles Island
3) on the top of the Cobequid Pass.

Any other possible locations anyone???

Are there any off and on ramps at these locations? If there are I'm sure that someone will take a chance sooner or later. But if not then they will only be able to get either the east or west traffic and not both. Government will not build a overpass and on and off ramps for a service station.

[macas539]

Originally Posted by L'homard

First, there are indeed turning lanes at the Salisbury / TCH intersction, at least there were yesterday - but I agreee it's confusing and could have been done better.
Second, the free market (and the local planning authority I suppose) decides where to set up these things. If you were going to invest millions in a facility like this, would you do it at the busiest spot, or out in the woods at Havelock? I wish they were better spaced too. It's just the wrong thing to do if you are in business. These guys aren't operating charities. If I was the Salisbury rep. on the planning board, would I want this in my village, or would I suggest they invest in the neighbouring village? Not likely.
If anyone thinks it's a good idea to build this at the Havelock exit, have at 'er. The property is for sale. Go for it! Just some food for thought.

I'm pro development in Salisbury, or any other city/town for that matter, business is good. I just feel that infrastructure needs to keep pace as best as possible with new businesses and the increased traffic these venues will ultimately generate. It's either the village put up the funding to better redesign the roads or the planning committee seeks to have the developer pay a portion of necessary upgrades.

There are turning lanes at the TCH intersection, however as you pointed out they can be confusing. Since this road is dodgy at best with the current state of development, this new service centre will serve to only exacerbate existing safety issues and highlight the inefficiencies of the current Fredericton Rd design and layout, of which village council does not discuss nor make any attempts to address.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There are at least several places along the TCH in NS & NB where I wish there were 24 hr highway service facilities like they have in Ontario. These are on remote sections of the road, and would be useful for emergency gas, emergency coffee and as a pull-off for drowsy drivers. They would be especially useful in the wintertime when driving conditions can rapidly deteriorate. People need a place to pull off the road if they are uncomfortable driving.

These rest/service stops could be located in several places including:
1) halfway between Freddy & Woodstock
2) halfway between Salisbury & Coles Island
3) on the top of the Cobequid Pass.

Any other possible locations anyone???

The Big Stops in Atlantic Canada effectively equal ONRoutes in Ontario. Unless you're proposing the Provincial government begin creating NB rest stops similar to Big Stops so they can compete.

The ONRoutes are still located next to small towns and villages so that people who are working at them at least have an opportunity to live nearby. Placing a rest stop in the middle of Salisbury/Coles Island still leaves it in the middle of absolute nowhere and doesn't make life easier for people working or servicing these locations. The most ideal locations for NB rest stops are already taken up/owned by Irving and its Big Stops: Aulac, Salisbury, Lincoln, St-Andre. That combined with the fact that Irving purchases most interchange land available (like in Grand Bay-Westfield on Route 7 & Colonel Nase, for example) and you're left with limited options.

Problems like the Salisbury-Coles Island stretch are what happens when you build a highway in the legitimate middle of nowhere. We wouldn't be having these issues if the TCH routed through Sussex. Que sera sera.

If you wanted an OnRoute-style development in New Brunswick i'd recommend Coles Island, Norton/Hampton, Nackawic, and Florenceville. The problem is that traffic numbers on most of these highways aren't enough to make financial sense for a government investing in rest stops in these locations. Big Stops/other stops are already frequent enough that it doesn't make much sense unless NB suddenly finds itself sitting at 1M people in the next few years.

I think it's great that there's more highway-based development going on in Salisbury but I agree that it's just making a bigger centre even larger when there are stretches of road in this province that are longer with no services. Sobeys & A&W et. al. must see some sort of revenue potential in this location. The corridors in NB between the three cities are growing in population as the cities grow so we're going to continue to see this growth and development moving forward.

[gehrhardt]

Originally Posted by macas539

I'm pro development in Salisbury, or any other city/town for that matter, business is good. I just feel that infrastructure needs to keep pace as best as possible with new businesses and the increased traffic these venues will ultimately generate. It's either the village put up the funding to better redesign the roads or the planning committee seeks to have the developer pay a portion of necessary upgrades.

I live in Salisbury too, and I am definitely pro-development. Unfortunately, the village seems to think it is necessary to redo the landscaping in front of the municipal building and plant a few trees on Main street (next year maybe?) instead of actually fixing the roads and other infrastructure. I'm glad Highland Park is getting some attention, but the state of the roads is terrible. Three older guys with a dump truck and shovels do not make for a smoothly patched road.

[L'homard]

@ Macas, I don't really disagree with what you say.
I don't know this for a fact, but I would bet the village would argue that the traffic issue up there is the province's problem. (I'm assuming F'ton Road is a designated provincial highway, but not sure.)
Eventually, the traffic problem will conspire with the law of diminishing returns, if it hasn't already. Already I'll bypass the opportunity to buy a two-four for $31.99 at the liquor barn there, in tourist season, and instead pay $45 in the city because of the traffic. And I'm a cheap bastard.

[macas539]

Originally Posted by L'homard

@ Macas, I don't really disagree with what you say.
I don't know this for a fact, but I would bet the village would argue that the traffic issue up there is the province's problem. (I'm assuming F'ton Road is a designated provincial highway, but not sure.)
Eventually, the traffic problem will conspire with the law of diminishing returns, if it hasn't already. Already I'll bypass the opportunity to buy a two-four for $31.99 at the liquor barn there, in tourist season, and instead pay $45 in the city because of the traffic. And I'm a cheap bastard.

Lol! I'm the same way. If it's peak tourist season I too leave Salisbury and head over to the liquor store at Main & Vaughan Harvey in the city or the one in Riverview. The extra fuel cost and slightly higher liquor prices are worth my sanity haha.

As for the Fredericton Rd being a provincially designated highway, you are correct. The village is quick to shrug any responsibility or concerns raised over Fton Rd or its own Main st to the province as they are both under provincial jurisdiction.

However, my belief is that the village's mentality of "not our jurisdiction/not our problem" will ultimately serve to hinder development in the long run. The province of NB is in no hurry to look into upgrading or even maintaining these roads since they do cut through the municipality. The province certainly won't be proactive on issues. It will require a persistent driving force (pardon the pun) to bring issues to the department of transportation's attention and to seek appropriate resolutions, something that our current village council seems unwilling to do.

In all reality maintenance and upgrades of these roads should be absorbed by the village. I think it's rather senseless and inefficient to defer responsibility to the province on major arterial roads that run directly through a municipality. Salisbury needs to pony up and own the roads. Otherwise, if more and more people feel it's just easier to go to Moncton for their needs, then businesses will start dying off and new developments will shy away.

[MonctonRad]

This will be good news for the NB provincial economy:


6 Maliseet First Nations agree to Sisson mine deal
Agreement will see First Nations share in millions of dollars a year in royalties from $579M mine
By Alan White, CBC News Posted: Feb 10, 2017 1:16 PM AT|
Last Updated: Feb 10, 2017 2:05 PM AT
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...deal-1.3976027

[gehrhardt]

The Salisbury ANBL Depot reopened yesterday. It is not what I expected at all, and not in a good way. Picture a dimly lit Costco or Home Depot, with a small cooler in the back.

What they have done is made it into a warehouse with floor to ceiling metal racks. It appears to only sell larger bottles, or cases of liquor, wine or beer. There is a discount for buying in bulk.

From what I could see, there is no craft beer at all. As for the large corporate breweries, it looked like all you could by was cases of 24, no smaller sizes. Even the selection for those beers seemed more limited than other stores.

I walked in there expecting one of the redesigned stores, with a growler fill station. I couldn't have been more wrong. I walked out without buying anything, and noticed at least half a dozen other people doing the same.

I have no idea what the thinking behind this is.

[OliverD]

Well it's a discount depot, not a normal liquor store.

[gehrhardt]

Originally Posted by OliverD

Well it's a discount depot, not a normal liquor store.

As someone who lives in Salisbury, my options are now the under-stocked agency store, or driving to Moncton. It's a matter of them having a full fledged store in the village (always called a depot) and then taking it away after only about 5 years.