Harry Stinson on downtown Hamilton

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

someone sounds a little arrogant.
Let me assure you of one thing. I NEVER write anything on here with you in mind.
You bring less to the discussion than anyone (unless criticism and complaining are supposed to add to the conversation). I might reply to you once in a while, like right now, but you've almost never seen me address you first. Sorry bro, but you're last on the list of people I'm interested in hearing from here.
Most of the others are able to carry on great conversations and add great insight to the discussion. Not everyone agrees all the time, which is part of living on planet earth.
I'm not sure why it seems you have it out for me, but again, I assure you that you're never on my mind when I'm writing posts.

I am more than a little arrogant, as it seems you are as well. But I also suspect that I was right when it comes to you pulling stuff out of your butt when it comes to Stinson and his level of wealth. As far as the comment about you writing specifically with me in mind, it was hardly serious. It's just that you keep writing so much about a "new tallest" that it seems to defy all reason to me.

I do not have it out for you. I have rhymed off the reasons why I do not like your manner on here a number of times --- what it boils down to is the fact that I find your style incredibly offputting on a consistent basis. But I concede that I am probably too harsh with you, so I will make some effort to tone it down.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Pay no heed, RTH. Come springtime naysayers like BCTed will be eating crow bigtime.

I have nothing to eat crow about. If Stinson actually does something good for Hamilton, then great. All I am saying is that he is not some magician --- however you interpret his track record, I don't think that you can argue that it isn't full of messy complications and controversies --- and we should not rush out to give the guy a key to the city, nor should we set any expectations based on a couple of interviews and a letter to the local paper.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Another 'failure' Stinson's critics cite is 1 King. The fact of the matter is that this development is the first successful high-end hotel condiminium development in Toronto. It is perceived as a failure because a group of investors, led by David Mirvish, launched a law suit against Stinson because their investment return is not as high as he projected, due to the fact that municipal taxes are using the commercial rate rather than the residential rate that Stinson used to estimate their returns on investment. Again, I emphasize their beef is they are not making as much money as they thought they would, which is very different than losing money on an investment.

I was going to let all of your comments go, but this one just stuck out a bit too much. Stinson really should have made absolutely certain that the residential rate would apply before making all of the misleading statements that he did make. The tax rates were an open question for quite a long time with One King West. Also, it does not matter that nominal returns are above zero if they are not near expectations --- there are such things as cost of capital and opportunity cost that have to be taken into consideration --- if those costs are not met, then that is equivalent to losing money on an investment. The fact is that people were misled, and it does not matter if Harry Stinson misled them consciously or unconsciously --- purchasers should probably have done their homework, but he should have as well.

[BCTed]

OK, I have written enough on this topic for a while. Consider this thread to be a BCTed-free zone for at least a few weeks.

[raisethehammer]

great information Mark. Yes, the CandyFactory lofts were also ground-breaking in TO. I read a piece recently about them and how much of a battle was waged to get resdiential into former industrial space.
Sounds like he's more of a ground-breaker than anything...lofts in industrial buildings and hotel/condo projects would not exist yet in TO if not for Harry.

[WhipperSnapper]

^One King is a massive failure in any way you look at it and it is his only development project he struck through to the end. (built at a lost, hotel operating at a loss, high number of resale units with little interest selling in many cases at below the purchase price)

As for some of the others, it took the departure of Stinson to make them successful. Stinson style of mirco-management (can't work with partners), inability to finalize decisions (every project had at least 3 major design changes) , and a complete disregard for zoning policy (i.e. Nathan Phillips Square shadowing bylaw) will always put him in the crapper. The fundamental rule of thumb for a developer is to get in and cash out as soon as possible.

Ask yourself, Why would anyone willingly separate themselves from Toronto/GTA's current market conditions to test the potential of Hamilton? Keep in mind that the likelihood of Hamilton surviving a GTA bust is minimal at best.

[raisethehammer]

goodlookin...you're right on some points, but I follow the TO development news. City hall clearly caused delay after delay with Sapphire. Candy Factory is IMO a real success. Hamilton has so many old buildings like that, I could see it becoming a good style of development for us.
I think Harry was smart to move from TO. Reputation is a big thing, especially in that business. Keep in mind, his plan was to move to the US. And my guess, he still will someday. He was invited to Hamilton and realized that the market is almost devoid of TO-style condos. I think he's looking to make some quick cash here before moving on.
He's done nothing different from Trump or other high profile builders. Just so happens that the person suing him is an equally huge name in that city. He had little choice but to pay off his debts and skip town. let's at least give the guy credit for paying off his debtors. Many in this business screw around for years trying to weasel out of debt repayment.
He's no angel, but I think he presents an opportunity for Hamilton to keep building momentum downtown.

[coalminecanary]

he's gotta be better than liuna. I am excited to see ANYONE at least trying...

[realcity]

Originally Posted by BCTed

I don't know who you think suggested that Stinson was broke, but it was not me. I am sure that he has been able to pocket a reasonable amount of money for himself.

Among the wealthiest in Hamilton? I seriously doubt that, even if he actually were a Hamiltonian.

Stinson IS a Hamiltonian now. He bought a house in the Bull's Lane area.... for $800,000. Lots of people who don't have any money are buying $800,000 homes. Broke eh?

It's funny to see the people who don't want to see a landmark project/development in our core. I can't wait until it happens.

Regarding 1KW. Property speculators beware is the lesson, but more importantly... Who Cares? it's BUILT. and it's the sweetest looking scraper. It's not going to be torn down and it won't sit empty. I could care less about the finances of a building, just as long as it's gracing Hamilton's skyline. This site is about Skyscrapers, and fans of Skyscrapers, at least it used to be.

[realcity]

does anyone care about the finances if you didn't invest... look at this baby.

[DC83]

^^ Amen... one of my favourite TO scrapers, fo sho!!
... and has been even b4 I knew who developped it or even knew who the hell Harry Stinson was!
Imagine something that sexy attached to The Connaught *droooool*

[LikeHamilton]

At the level of play that Mr. Stinson plays at, going broke, bankrupt, loosing a project, walking away from a project has nothing to do with how much money he has, can raise, can spin a story to investors.

Everything is set up separately and does not affect the other.

Case in point. When Nationair (used to fly into Hamilton and I have friends that worked for them) went bankrupt, the formers employees where pissed at the owner. They filed with loses of $80 million but the owner walked away with his $20 million home and was paying his wife and himself a multi-million $ salary right up to the end. And bounce everyone else’s paycheck!

[realcity]

[raisethehammer]

yup... 1KW is amazing. i'm not a fan of modern towers, but have always loved that builidng since first seeing it rise during construction.

[flar]

Originally Posted by realcity

That's exactly what we need. In one fell swoop, downtown's reputation could be improved because anyone who visited downtown or drove down Main St. would focus on the nice shiny tower and see progress instead of decay.

[SteelTown]

Realcity could you do one with the skyline....pick one of flar's skyline photos and add the Stinson building. Curious to see how it'll impact the skyline.

[realcity]

photobucket resizes it. i have it large, who can host?

[realcity]

[SteelTown]

One word....

SWEET!!!

Thanx!

[DC83]

yep... I think we NEED a skyscraper right there! Would fit in perfectly!