The Great Canadian Sports Attendance, Marketing and TV Ratings Thread

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Eh, I wasn't 100% sure whether you were or not and wasn't going to be presumptive.

.

No worries, but yes I am basically 100% francophone, in spite of the level of English (and knowledge of anglo culture) that I have due to growing up in very anglo places most of my life. But today I have spoken to my wife, kids, co-workers and parents (on the phone) so far and I haven't spoken a single word of English yet. I have a name like Pierre Dupont and my wife has a name like Josée Laplante.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

BTW, I think they should change the name of the league to the Quebec and Maritime Junior Hockey League - they wouldn't even have to change the league acronym!!

Yeah, there would be a certain logic in that. I am sure they've though about that but I guess it runs into the issue of "optics".

The Maritime teams are, relatively speaking, often more "dynamic" in terms of attendance and probably stuff like sponsorships, etc. than the average Quebec-based-club.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Does RDS talk much about the six Maritime based teams in the QMJHL,or do they limit their coverage exclusively to the 12 Quebec based teams.

They cover the whole league. I've never actually measured the attention they give to Maritimes vs. Quebec, but certainly the Maritime clubs are not ignored. Perhaps the coverage of Quebec clubs is slightly disproportionate, I dunno.

I've even seen them broadcast regular season games between two Maritime clubs, and neither of them was the Titan!

Keep mind that all of the Maritime clubs have a strong contingent of Quebec players, and sometimes these can be some of the league's star properties.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

RDS also has a weekly show on the Quebec Midget AAA league IIRC.

.

Yup.

Obviously there is a self-serving aspect to this too.

To run a French-language sports channel in a small corner of North America is hugely challenging in terms of finding talking heads who can spout locker room platitudes about "giving their 110%" in French.

Even when covering the Habs there is the risk that you'll have to subtitle most of your post-game interviews.

So sports properties that provide lots of talking heads in French are looked upon very favourably by RDS and TVA Sports.

Even the Q's Maritime clubs are pretty good in this respect, and it also probably explains why the Quebec sports media have given a lot of coverage to the RSEQ/U Sport football programs like the Laval Rouge et Or and Montréal Carabins.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, there would be a certain logic in that. I am sure they've though about that but I guess it runs into the issue of "optics".

I think that an acknowledgement of the importance of the maritime teams to the QMJHL is appropriate. 1/3rd of the teams in the league are based in the Maritimes, including some of the more successful franchises. You mentioned that the Q was the weakest of the three CHL leagues, but we are winning more Memorial Cups as the league matures and stabilizes. The Maritime teams are a big part of that (Halifax, Saint John & Bathurst have all won the Memorial Cup. Moncton has been in the Memorial Cup tournament twice, once in the final game). If the QMJHL just consisted of the 12 Quebec based teams, the league would be in a lot more trouble, especially since most Quebec based teams are in small and isolated markets.

Originally Posted by Acajack

The Maritime teams are, relatively speaking, often more "dynamic" in terms of attendance and probably stuff like sponsorships, etc. than the average Quebec-based-club.

Indeed. Halifax & Moncton are #2 and #3 in league attendance and run professional quality organizations in larger arenas (11,000 and 8,800 seat respectively). Saint John is up there too.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You mentioned that the Q was the weakest of the three CHL leagues, but we are winning more Memorial Cups as the league matures and stabilizes.

The Memorial Cup determines the best team but doesn't say much about best league. The top teams in each league might be able to beat each other but on average the WHL and OHL are far-and-away better than the Q. It's not particularly close.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Indeed. Halifax & Moncton are #2 and #3 in league attendance and run professional quality organizations in larger arenas (11,000 and 8,800 seat respectively). Saint John is up there too.

The Q has a bit of sorting out to do in the next few years. I find it hard to imagine some of their smaller markets will be able to hang on long-term. I'm thinking mostly about Baie-Comeau and one of Rouyn/Val-d'or but also about Bathurst or Cape Breton. Gatineau and Chicoutimi are getting new rinks which assures their futures but looking critically at places like Baie-Comeau and Bathurst i'm not sure how they hold on beyond ten years with declining local populations and market sizes.

Even for travel purposes it would be easier if some of these teams were relocated to more central areas, namely Trois-Rivieres.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Even for travel purposes it would be easier if some of these teams were relocated to more central areas, namely Trois-Rivieres.

Indeed. I agree.

Gilles Courteau has been on record as stating he is happy with 18 teams, does not contemplate league expansion, and is happy with the current host cities (no plans for relocation).

Times change however, and as you have correctly stated, some shuffling about of franchises within the league may be appropriate.

If I recall correctly, Bathurst is the smallest market team in the entire CHL. Even with their recent success, it is hard to imagine the long term viability of this team. They often only get crowds of 1,200 or so out to a game.

Baie Comeau is certainly an outlier too. It has to be one of the most isolated CHL teams in the entire country. I don't imagine too many other Q League teams would shed many tears if they relocated.

The same might go for both R-N and Val d'Or, but I think these two teams together may have some synergy keeping them both viable. I don't know enough about that area of Quebec though to make any kind of informed comment.

I think Cape Breton is safe for the long term. The population of the island may be sinking like a stone, but there are still about 100,000 in the Sydney region. There is natural rivalry with Halifax as well.

As for cities that teams could relocate to. The obvious choice in NB would be Fredericton, but arena issues and UNB will likely keep this from happening. I think you're right about Trois Rivieres (Shawinigan might object though). I would hope that a team could flourish on the south shore of Montreal, perhaps in Ste. Hyacinthe.

What do you think?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The Memorial Cup determines the best team but doesn't say much about best league. The top teams in each league might be able to beat each other but on average the WHL and OHL are far-and-away better than the Q. It's not particularly close.



The Q has a bit of sorting out to do in the next few years. I find it hard to imagine some of their smaller markets will be able to hang on long-term. I'm thinking mostly about Baie-Comeau and one of Rouyn/Val-d'or but also about Bathurst or Cape Breton. Gatineau and Chicoutimi are getting new rinks which assures their futures but looking critically at places like Baie-Comeau and Bathurst i'm not sure how they hold on beyond ten years with declining local populations and market sizes.

Even for travel purposes it would be easier if some of these teams were relocated to more central areas, namely Trois-Rivieres.

I am surprised that Baie-Comeau hasn't become a strong "regional" team like Rimouski has. The Océanic are one of the stronger small city teams based in Quebec.

It seems like two teams in Abitibi-Témiscamingue are a bit much. I guess the idea was that they'd thrive due to the rivalry between the two cities. That hasn't really turned either of the clubs into dynamic entities with strong attendance game in and game out.

Acadie-Bathurst is probably the weakest of the Maritime clubs. Even if they've won a championship. I don't know if I read it here but there were rumours about them going to Rivière-du-Loup but I doubt that will happen. It's not much bigger than Bathurst and it's too close to Rimouski.

Yes, the Q should be in Trois-Rivières but we'll see if that happens.

Aside from that probably the next-best place for a team would be Granby. They used to have one - Patrick Roy played his junior there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I would hope that a team could flourish on the south shore of Montreal, perhaps in Ste. Hyancinthe.

I forget about St-Hyacinthe. They had a team for a time. Either them or Granby I guess. But after T-R of course.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The same might go for both R-N and Val d'Or, but I think these two teams together may have some synergy keeping them both viable. I don't know enough about that area of Quebec though to make any kind of informed comment.

I don't know which of Rouyn or Val-d'Or you'd sacrifice though. The cities are very equal in size. Their arenas are similar in size and old, but have undergone some recent renovations.

I doubt that if you sacrificed one of them that fans from that city would gravitate to the other team left in the region.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It seems like two teams in Abitibi-Témiscamingue are a bit much. I guess the idea was that they'd thrive due to the rivalry between the two cities. That hasn't really turned either of the clubs into dynamic entities with strong attendance game in and game out.

They do alright for attendance given how small their arenas are, though. I think VDO's arena is better suited currently.

Trois-Rivieres, Granby, St-Hyacinthe all make sense to a certain degree. I wouldn't mind seeing Saint-Georges given a shot, too, but most of the arenas in these towns aren't suitable. The Q left these places initially for these reasons.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I think Cape Breton is safe for the long term. The population of the island may be sinking like a stone, but there are still about 100,000 in the Sydney region. There is natural rivalry with Halifax as well.

I haven't been to Centre200 in a while but we're going on a decade since the most recent renovations. With a plummeting population, an older arena, and a lengthy drive to the nearest team I think things begin to become difficult.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If I recall correctly, Bathurst is the smallest market team in the entire CHL. Even with their recent success, it is hard to imagine the long term viability of this team. They often only get crowds of 1,200 or so out to a game.

I think Bathurst has the smallest city/town population but its CA population is larger than Baie-Comeau and Swift Current.

Census Agglomeration Populations, Census 2016 (change from 2011):
Cape Breton.....99K (-3%)
Rouyn-Noranda 42K (+3%)
Moose Jaw .......35K (+2%)
Val-d'Or ...........34K (+2%)
Owen Sound ....32K (-1%)
Bathurst ..........31K (-3%)
Baie-Comeau ...28K (-3%)
Swift Current ....19K (+6%)

Comparatively:
Trois-Rivieres ...156K (+2%)
Fredericton.........102K (+3%)
Granby .............85K (+5%)
Sainte-Hyacinthe 60K (+5%)
Truro ................46K (-0%)
Saint-Georges ....33K (+4%)

Truro is an intriguing one. New arena, nearby (en route) to other CHL franchises, large enough market, stable population....

[MonctonRad]

Cape Breton has a new owner, and he seems enthusiastic. He was twisting Gille Courteau's arm the other week about being the Q's nominee to host the Memorial Cup in 2022.

I was going to mention Truro. It's a growing community with a CA nearing 50,000 and halfway between Moncton and Halifax on a major divided highway. The arena is new, but the seating is limited (somewhere around 2,500-3,000).

If I were to throw out another possibility it would be Edmundston NB. Again, right on the TCH and with a new arena. They relocated the MJHL Dieppe Commandos there the other year and they've been doing very well attendance wise.

[MonctonRad]

Rath Eastlink Community Centre - Truro (seating 2,500)


new arena in Edmundston

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If I were to throw out another possibility it would be Edmundston NB. Again, right on the TCH and with a new arena. They relocated the MJHL Dieppe Commandos there the other year and they've been doing very well attendance wise.

Yeah, they tweeted out a comparison of their attendance v. Q teams without mentioning number of games, price of tickets... Nice try, I guess, but shiny new arenas in small towns are always well-attended, especially for new teams. Edmundston suffers from the same problems Bathurst has - an older, declining population base, but with the added bonus of 20% less of a market! A Bathurst-Edmundston relocation would literally and figuratively be a lateral move, just with a newer arena in the latter. Better for traveling teams, at least.

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Cape Breton has a new owner, and he seems enthusiastic. He was twisting Gille Courteau's arm the other week about being the Q's nominee to host the Memorial Cup in 2022.

Ahead of Moncton or Gatineau? Good luck to him, I suppose. Quebec as a province would be going on seven years without hosting by 2022, meaning Quebec or Gatineau for 2022 seems much more likely to me.

If there's no boxes in the Truro rink then it becomes much less likely.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

They do alright for attendance given how small their arenas are, though. I think VDO's arena is better suited currently.

Trois-Rivieres, Granby, St-Hyacinthe all make sense to a certain degree. I wouldn't mind seeing Saint-Georges given a shot, too, but most of the arenas in these towns aren't suitable. The Q left these places initially for these reasons.


I haven't been to Centre200 in a while but we're going on a decade since the most recent renovations. With a plummeting population, an older arena, and a lengthy drive to the nearest team I think things begin to become difficult.


I think Bathurst has the smallest city/town population but its CA population is larger than Baie-Comeau and Swift Current.

Census Agglomeration Populations, Census 2016 (change from 2011):
Cape Breton.....99K (-3%)
Rouyn-Noranda 42K (+3%)
Moose Jaw .......35K (+2%)
Val-d'Or ...........34K (+2%)
Owen Sound ....32K (-1%)
Bathurst ..........31K (-3%)
Baie-Comeau ...28K (-3%)
Swift Current ....19K (+6%)

Comparatively:
Trois-Rivieres ...156K (+2%)
Fredericton.........102K (+3%)
Granby .............85K (+5%)
Sainte-Hyacinthe 60K (+5%)
Truro ................46K (-0%)
Saint-Georges ....33K (+4%)

Truro is an intriguing one. New arena, nearby (en route) to other CHL franchises, large enough market, stable population....

This may be true for some others too but of the smaller markets, I think you could easily add another 25-30,000 to Bathurst's market as significant chunk of the Acadian Peninsula is very "into" the Titan. I have relatives who live an hour away and their kids have Titan jerseys and they went to the airport to greet the team when they won the Memorial Cup.

Shippigan is a stretch but Caraquet and Tracadie would definitely be included in that.

[JHikka]

Quasi-related to this thread: cost of Winnipeg Jets STs will go from a previous yearly increase of 3% to a yearly increase of 5% starting this offseason. According to renewal letters sent out by the team, ticket prices for all categories have cumulatively increased by 26% since 2011.

Originally Posted by Acajack

This may be true for some others too but of the smaller markets, I think you could easily add another 25-30,000 to Bathurst's market as significant chunk of the Acadian Peninsula is very "into" the Titan. I have relatives who live an hour away and their kids have Titan jerseys and they went to the airport to greet the team when they won the Memorial Cup.

Shippigan is a stretch but Caraquet and Tracadie would definitely be included in that.

The Bathurst CA already includes most of Beresford and the surrounding area. If you're implying that people from Tracadie and Caraquet travel into Bathurst thirty times a year for home games i'd probably consider tacking on another 20K to that listing, but the commuting patterns don't add up to warrant the CA area including them.

Bathurst does have a fairly extensive regional population to feed off of (unlike, say, Baie-Comeau...) but that population in the Acadan Peninsula is also older than most other places in Canada, so the likelihood of these people doing frequent drives to games seems unlikely. It's possible I suppose.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Quasi-related to this thread: cost of Winnipeg Jets STs will go from a previous yearly increase of 3% to a yearly increase of 5% starting this offseason. According to renewal letters sent out by the team, ticket prices for all categories have cumulatively increased by 26% since 2011.



The Bathurst CA already includes most of Beresford and the surrounding area. If you're implying that people from Tracadie and Caraquet travel into Bathurst thirty times a year for home games i'd probably consider tacking on another 20K to that listing, but the commuting patterns don't add up to warrant the CA area including them.

Bathurst does have a fairly extensive regional population to feed off of (unlike, say, Baie-Comeau...) but that population in the Acadan Peninsula is also older than most other places in Canada, so the likelihood of these people doing frequent drives to games seems unlikely. It's possible I suppose.

Regardless, it's still not a market that is performing particularly well, I'd agree.

[JHikka]

The Alouettes will be rebranding their team on Friday. New jersey and new logo.

https://en.montrealalouettes.com/off...treals-launch/

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Quasi-related to this thread: cost of Winnipeg Jets STs will go from a previous yearly increase of 3% to a yearly increase of 5% starting this offseason. According to renewal letters sent out by the team, ticket prices for all categories have cumulatively increased by 26% since 2011.

Interesting. I'm a half-season STH and this is the first I've heard of this.

I suspect that this will fly given that the Jets are still doing quite well at the moment and people are willing to pony up for a legitimate cup contender. But at the same time, demand is far softer than it was from, say, 2011-2014. I sell some of my tickets on the secondary market at my cost, which is substantially lower than the box office cost, and there's still no guarantee that the tickets will sell unless it's against a team with a large following here (basically orig. 6 and the Canadian teams).

I hope it doesn't happen for a good long while, but it would be interesting to see what happens if the team eventually takes a turn for the worse and misses the playoffs a couple years running.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The Alouettes will be rebranding their team on Friday. New jersey and new logo.

https://en.montrealalouettes.com/off...treals-launch/

Image is very important but branding is one area the CFL is terrible at. NFL branding is significantly nicer. Even NCAA football teams have nicer uniforms/logos than the CFL. I'd like to buy CFL merchandise but just can't bring myself to buy or wear the ugly stuff they've put out the last 30 years.

Preliminary images of the new Alouettes colours and jersey look sharp. I hope this gets the other 8 teams interested in better branding. The CFL can't do much to make a 25,000 seat stadium look like a major league 75,000 seat stadium but overhauling branding is something they could easily do.