Jackson Square

[King&James]

Keep going! How about a grand entrance, filled with glass and light. Maybe some natural stone (at least for first 20 feet, then resume regularly scheduled 70's bunker)

[anactualalien]

I hope, come what may for Jackson square, they might find a talented somebody with an imagination that could make the rooftop area with the grassy section above that entrance work. The rest further back should definitely be built over or converted to a skylight or whatever, but the vantage over the Gore is unique enough I'd like to see it maintained somehow and have the spirit of the original vision realized.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

'...the spirit of the original vision realized.'

That rooftop plaza was a compromise between the original plan which included a street level plaza/ mall and the second incarnation which was a completely privatized shopping centre.

Experts stated the obvious at the time, nearly 50 years ago, that a raised plaza wouldn't work, that it would be dangerous and that nobody would use it.

My point is that it won't work, ever. Every time I'm up there I want to get down to street level. Ideally, the whole mall would go and the original street pattern would be recreated. Unfortunately the cost to raze Jackson Square would be astronomical.

[NortheastWind]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

'...the spirit of the original vision realized.'

My point is that it won't work, ever. Every time I'm up there I want to get down to street level. Ideally, the whole mall would go and the original street pattern would be recreated. Unfortunately the cost to raze Jackson Square would be astronomical.

My experience when I frequented the area was a band playing, tables where people would enjoy their lunch and shade seeking loungers. It was nice. It could become more if First Real Properties did something different, such as cafes having access to the roof within their leased ground floor space.

[ScreamingViking]

Replacing a lot more of the interlock and concrete with plants and more small trees would help that space, if the structure can handle it -- those little raised/walled lawns are pathetic. But outside of occasional use for music or something like that I don't think it's ever going to be a people place.

Would there be a good business case for building new convention hall space on top? It's large area, though it does have limitations in terms of layout. Just spit-balling.

[King&James]

Risking being repetitive, but JS needs a full rethink and super beneficial to introduce medium density low rise residential, maybe just west of library, maybe even converting and adding onto the south end of the Hamilton City Centre.

[realcity]

I like Jackson Square. I enjoyed having an office there. I liked the underground parking, in winter all the ice is melted off, in summer not boiling car is hot. I liked having my bank, accountant, Grand & Toy, and lots of places for lunch within a short climate controlled walk. I like the security, the 24 hour access, go on weekends or late at night.

Let's imagine we make an entire downtown block of pedestrian only streets. Now lets line those streets with a variety of shops, restaurants, offices, a library, movie theatre and arena. Now lets patrol those streets with security, cover those streets with a roof so that is it cool in the summer and warm in the winter. On top of that roof lets make a nice area to go outside away from traffic with places to sit and sometime performers. And let's call it Jackson Square.... what is wrong with that?

[Chronamut]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

'...the spirit of the original vision realized.'

That rooftop plaza was a compromise between the original plan which included a street level plaza/ mall and the second incarnation which was a completely privatized shopping centre.

Experts stated the obvious at the time, nearly 50 years ago, that a raised plaza wouldn't work, that it would be dangerous and that nobody would use it.

My point is that it won't work, ever. Every time I'm up there I want to get down to street level. Ideally, the whole mall would go and the original street pattern would be recreated. Unfortunately the cost to raze Jackson Square would be astronomical.

not if the razing was unintentional

also some history of what was originally intended for jackson square - personally I think if they went back to the original plan they might be able to please everyone:

"In April 1965, city planner Murray Jones unveiled his plans for a new downtown civic square. Under his plan, axial pools would form the centre of the complex with a planetarium in the middle. There would be a sculpture court, a large remodelled suburban-style Eaton's department store, an auditorium, a hotel with a garden courtyard, and a library adjacent to the art gallery, with King Street West running one way through the middle. Amongst parcels of open green space, new smaller streets would cut across the public vistas. Roughly 17 hectares (43 acres) of familiar downtown space would be eliminated, and many open spaces would be incorporated into the new square, under the assumption that the old slum-like core required plenty of fresh air circulation – ironically, a public health theory born during the height of the cholera epidemic in Victorian London. Although many Hamiltonians held fond memories of the buildings that were to be torn down, the garden-like Civic Square plan that was published in The Hamilton Spectator grabbed the public's attention and fuelled their enthusiasm for change. In addition, the Greater Hamilton Shopping Centre (now known as The Centre on Barton), which had opened ten years earlier east of the city on the old Jockey Club race track, and which had been successful since its opening, had made the core's downtown buildings look antiquated.[2]

Despite the wide approval of the original garden-like scheme, by July 1968 the plan had been scrapped in favour of a scheme by Montreal developers Yale Properties that would provide more revenue. As the municipal government hashed out the overall construction cost to build the original plan, controversy stirred amongst officials of CMHC who were under pressure by the federal minister to stop providing money.[3] By October 1968, CMHC had given out approximately $168 million to various Canadian municipalities to upgrade their built infrastructure, but after multiple complaints from watchdog groups and government officials over the casual administrative process and its inability to control the expenditure of private contractors,federal Urban Affairs Minister Robert Andres was forced to halt activities.[3] Ultimately CMHC reverted to its pre-1964 role, which was solely to provide capital resources to create or redevelop residential addresses. Hamilton, therefore, lost its ability to apply or even negotiate for further grants and, as greater pressure was placed on the municipality to pick up the tab,[3] city planners disregarded the gardens and pools of the original plan and looked towards a scheme that would require a minimum amount of funding and produce a maximum amount of revenue for their investment. Yale Properties quickly swooped in and consolidated the originally dispersed commercial and civic components and locked them into two large super-blocks (figures 3 and 4), connected by an indoor mall with no outdoor frontage. High barren walls of brown concrete would line most of the expanded King Street West and all civic components were pushed onto a public square located above the mall and away from the street. The city and developer faced heavy opposition from the citizens who were promised open space, gardens, and long pools of fresh water, but all complaints either went unheeded or were quickly deflected by promises of civic festivals and facilities above the mall complex on the piazza roof or enclosed indoors."

[lachlanholmes]

Hello all.

I have some news and photos about Jackson Square and the Hamilton City Centre, which probably deserves its own thread for the future.


Firstly, the City Centre. I was in the City Centre on Sunday and took a look for the new bowling alley, which is located right off the elevator exit. However, this was midday Sunday and they weren't open. I question their business savvy as it seems a bowling alley would do best on weekends.

Additionally, there is a new escape room attraction opening in the North end of the lower level. I've included a photo of the hoarding and advertisement for it.

Moving on to Jackson Square.

Burger King has closed for renovations. Badly needed, so I'm glad to see them keeping up with the rest of the mall.

The hall across from the market has been painted orange with a very artsy looking graphic. The mall seems to be going generally upscale.

Perhaps most interesting, there is a possibility of a new tenant in the old McDonald's since their were a fair few workers doing something in there. Fingers crossed someone takes that space.

[movingtohamilton]

Originally Posted by scootaround

...

Moving on to Jackson Square.

Burger King has closed for renovations. Badly needed, so I'm glad to see them keeping up with the rest of the mall.

The hall across from the market has been painted orange with a very artsy looking graphic. The mall seems to be going generally upscale.

Perhaps most interesting, there is a possibility of a new tenant in the old McDonald's since their were a fair few workers doing something in there. Fingers crossed someone takes that space.

Thanks for the update. However, I'm convinced that J Square will never be going upscale. It's a "utility mall", where you go for a watch repair, maybe the postal outlet, dry cleaning, tailoring, the drug store, some groceries etc at Nations, and shopping at a couple of stores.

The mall has added a 2nd Tim Hortons. Yippee

You need upscale tenants to go upscale.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by movingtohamilton

Thanks for the update. However, I'm convinced that J Square will never be going upscale. It's a "utility mall", where you go for a watch repair, maybe the postal outlet, dry cleaning, tailoring, the drug store, some groceries etc at Nations, and shopping at a couple of stores.

The mall has added a 2nd Tim Hortons. Yippee

You need upscale tenants to go upscale.

They need an Apple store, or something of the like to drive customers to the area. There is so much they could do with Jackson's square. It is criminally under utilized in my opinion. You have thousands in the downtown with stores all along the streets, but no upscale restaurants like The Keg, or places like an Apple store or name brand clothes. I suspect with a few more students in the downtown right beside Jackson's Square, and like 5 new 30+ storey developments within spitting distance, the mall could upgrade and attract the couple thousand moving to the downtown in the next 5 years.

I feel the mall is managed by people who are just like many in the area, who do not see the full potential of Hamilton.

[King&James]

JS needs a residential component - or perhaps the Hamilton City Centre , right where Eatons floorplate resided. Pump in 400-600 units in a pair of 30 storey towers - that would give it a huge boost.

[TheRitsman]

Originally Posted by King&James

JS needs a residential component - or perhaps the Hamilton City Centre , right where Eatons floorplate resided. Pump in 400-600 units in a pair of 30 storey towers - that would give it a huge boost.

I've been saying forever, you get some residential or some big business in an office tower above, so everyone shops and gets food in the Square, the mall would be able to be useful.

The thing is, malls in the modern age are dead. The old idea of a mall is gone. You have to be creative with how you use the space if you want it to remain useful.

[thistleclub]

Jackson Square is the first and only retail holding in the entire Yale/Real portfolio (First Real Property's name gives it away -- the company was formed specifically to develop Jackson Square).

Most of Yale/Real's properties are suburban business parks or office towers atop podia of convenience businesses. They lack the institutional knowledge, economy of scale or Darwinian drive of a Cadillac Fairview, Ivanhoe Cambridge or RioCan, and don't refresh their holdings often enough to remain competitive for prestige retailers.

What they do have is 53 years left on the lease and a century-long amortization plan in mind.

Hamilton Spectator, Sept 3 2014:

City staff want the authority to negotiate to sell the land under Jackson Square.

Mall owners Yale Properties, which has 56 years left on its 99-year lease for the parcel of downtown property, wants to add another 50 years to the deal but is open to talks about buying the property.

Yale says it needs the extension to justify "the extent of the upgrades and renovations contemplated for Jackson Square," according to a staff report coming before the general issues committee Thursday.

[King&James]

Agree, don't see Yale ever investing heavily, even if the city were to sell the land (which why they are holding is beyond me, and there is simply no need) , so that combination will lead to status quo for the long range.

HCC on the other hand has the ability to reinvent itself, but likely needs a partner with some vision of what could be versus how to fill out what exists today.

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by King&James

Agree, don't see Yale ever investing heavily, even if the city were to sell the land (which why they are holding is beyond me, and there is simply no need) , so that combination will lead to status quo for the long range.

The fact that Yale/Real feel they need 100 years to see value in their investment tells you everything you need to know about the potential for change. Consider that Lime Ridge Mall opened just as development on Jackson Square was concluding (during the early '80s recession), and think of how many tens of millions Cadillac Fairview has put into LRM since then. Granted, Yale/Real doesn't actually own the JS property, but again, nothing in their DNA suggests that they would be able to make good on a from-scratch, paradigm-shifting retail development. It could just be an instantly dated bad idea that they will see as an argument against further investment.

Originally Posted by King&James

HCC on the other hand has the ability to reinvent itself, but likely needs a partner with some vision of what could be versus how to fill out what exists today.

We can probably take Cadillac Fairview off that list: They built the centre at a cost of $77M in 1990 ($128M in 2017 dollars) and sold it at a 95% markdown in 2000.

[lachlanholmes]

Agree to disagree on the mall being stuck as a utilitarian beast. Major new arrivals are making it clear- to me at least, that the mall is doing well and attracting a better clientèle.

Just a few years ago, when the LCBO was in the east end of the mall, it was a dump at that end. Now there's mac and freshii and Koodo and more.

As for comparisons to Limeridge, I personally find Limeridge cold and uninviting. Sure it's new and fancy but the food court is hard to get around and its essentially just a long hallway.

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by scootaround

Agree to disagree on the mall being stuck as a utilitarian beast. Major new arrivals are making it clear- to me at least, that the mall is doing well and attracting a better clientèle.

Just a few years ago, when the LCBO was in the east end of the mall, it was a dump at that end. Now there's mac and freshii and Koodo and more.

As for comparisons to Limeridge, I personally find Limeridge cold and uninviting. Sure it's new and fancy but the food court is hard to get around and its essentially just a long hallway.

Mall tenants have obviously made substantial investments in JS (without the benefit of 100-year leases, one presumes). And yes, demographic are changing. But I don't think that's because Yale/Real has made an ambitious revamp their focus — they're mainly enjoying the windfall of other parties' investments.

I would contend that demographic shift is because of external factors in recent years — including but not limited to the $10M MacNab Transit Terminal, the $14M HPL/Farmers Market revamp, Vrancor's adjacent developments (eg. the $35M Homewood Suites on Bay, the $100M Regency on Main, their $10M refresh of the Sheraton – with Starbucks franchise), the arrival of a $7M Nations Fresh, McMaster's $85M health campus, McMaster opening a continuing ed campus in the mall, the sale of Empire Theatres to Landmark and subsequent cinema revamp, Public Health relocating from the Right House, the Chamber of Commerce relocating from the harbourfront, and of course the exuberant real estate valuations that have sparked newfound interest in downtown investment and spun off countless residential and commercial projects downtown — rather than Yale/Real initiatives such as reworked entrances, a new food court, Dyson restrooms, a new logo and colourful wayfinding tools.

Not that those things don't help, but they appear to have followed the market, not led it.

I invoke LRM not because I think it's a retail nirvana but because it's an example of how Jackson Square's competitors operate.

[thistleclub]

:|

[lachlanholmes]

Originally Posted by thistleclub

Mall tenants have obviously made substantial investments in JS (without the benefit of 100-year leases, one presumes). And yes, demographic aren't changing. But I don't think that's because Yale/Real has made an ambitious revamp their focus — they're mainly enjoying the windfall of other parties' investments.

I would content that demographic shift is because of external factors in recent years — including but not limited to the $10M MacNab Transit Terminal, the $14M HPL/Farmers Market revamp, Vrancor's adjacent developments (eg. the $35M Homewood Suites on Bay, the $100M Regency on Main, their $10M refresh of the Sheraton – with Starbucks franchise), the arrival of a $7M Nations Fresh, McMaster's $85M health campus, McMaster opening a continuing ed campus in the mall, the sale of Empire Theatres to Landmark and subsequent cinema revamp, Public Health relocating from the Right House, the Chamber of Commerce relocating from the harbourfront, and of course the exuberant real estate valuations that have sparked newfound interest in downtown investment and spun off countless residential and commercial projects downtown — rather than Yale/Real initiatives such as reworked entrances, a new food court, Dyson restrooms, a new logo and colourful wayfinding tools.

Not that those things don't help, but they appear to have followed the market, not led it.

I invoke LRM not because I think it's a retail nirvana but because it's an example of how Jackson Square's competitors operate.

Oh I certainly agree with you on that. The improvements have been 95% made by individual retailers and other surrounding builds. The new doors are bad. Especially the one by King and Bay, next to the Standard Life building. The doors are always breaking down.

The washrooms are a big improvement though. Just need to work on keeping them cleaner- they need to be checked constantly. Everytime i'm in there there are always beers and drinks and garbage and unflushed toilets.