Petition against pro-Chinese Communist celebration by Vancouver city councillor

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by geotag277

They flew the flag of China. Many people from Vancouver come from China. Many are proud of their country.

You accidentally exposed the problem right there : They're proud of their country but which country are we referring to exactly ?

I have a problem with this and the flying of any foreign flag on any government grounds where the Canadian flag isn't the most prominent. Do the people who immigrate to Canada come because they want to remake their lives or because they want to remake Canada in an image they're more comfortable with ? I assume that for the vast majority of them it's the latter but if it's the former then we need to look into our immigration policies and what we're doing to integrate people.

Xi JinPing has reintroduced a more totalitarian style to China. He wants the state to have firm control over everything including peoples' thinking. Things were improving and now he's bringing it all back to square one with his nationalism and devotion to hive-mind, collectivist thinking. One gets the impression that he'd love nothing more than a decidedly two-tiered class system with a small elite and a bunch of ignorant peasants to serve as fodder for whatever he has planned.

We're Canadians, not Chinese. We should all have a problem with this. Flying that flag on government (at any level) space is an offense to everybody who came to Canada to escape the conditions they were born into.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by Spocket

You accidentally exposed the problem right there : They're proud of their country but which country are we referring to exactly ?

So the idea that people come to this country and still hold their original country in high esteem is foreign to you? It is possible to be proud of both Canada and their original home country. There is no requirement to renounce your home country on immigration to Canada.

I have a problem with this and the flying of any foreign flag on any government grounds where the Canadian flag isn't the most prominent.

Vancouver city hall offers this as a service and many flags have been flown there to any group who puts together the time to organize it.

I don't have any problem with this position, but it isn't being consistently applied.

Do the people who immigrate to Canada come because they want to remake their lives or because they want to remake Canada in an image they're more comfortable with ? I assume that for the vast majority of them it's the latter but if it's the former then we need to look into our immigration policies and what we're doing to integrate people.

People come to Canada for a variety of reasons, and we can't really control why, outside of some asinine "values test" which consists of the question "why you want to come to Canada, to help us or to change us"?

Xi JinPing has reintroduced a more totalitarian style to China. He wants the state to have firm control over everything including peoples' thinking. Things were improving and now he's bringing it all back to square one with his nationalism and devotion to hive-mind, collectivist thinking. One gets the impression that he'd love nothing more than a decidedly two-tiered class system with a small elite and a bunch of ignorant peasants to serve as fodder for whatever he has planned.

Wow, that isn't unbiased at all. This reminds me of the memes of Harper being literally Hitler that the anti Harper crowd posted on Facebook.

Here's a thought. Maybe you don't understand and know everything there is to know about the Chinese political climate, and furthermore, while no political leader is perfect, just the fact that we don't have perfect political leaders is not grounds for the majority of the population to completely renounce their entire country and associate shame with their flag.

We're Canadians, not Chinese. We should all have a problem with this. Flying that flag on government (at any level) space is an offense to everybody who came to Canada to escape the conditions they were born into.

Again, this is a mentality stuck in 1970s era China. Not everyone who comes to Canada is "escaping conditions they were born into". Many modern individuals come from China these days simply because China is highly competitive, and Canada offers options in education and employment and otherwise that might not be offered domestically in China. Many want to go on adventures, many want to see the world. Many want to return to China after some time, and that is always their plan.

Yes, in 1970s there was a societal crisis in China, and many left during that time to flee those conditions. These days, Chinese immigration looks a lot more like European immigration, and there isn't much separating the individual who came from France to start a new life in Canada compared with those who come from China.

The inability of people to understand that and recognize that (and have empathy for that) is quite sad, and this "China is a special country with special people who are some different class of citizen" is very much a Cold War era artifact which reveals whose mentalities are literally decades out of date.

I'm not saying the Chinese government is perfect, no government is. I'm saying that the people who are coming here, especially over the past couple decades, are very proud of their country, despite the mistakes, and it is not far removed from Canadians flying the Canadian Flag even though Canada has a history with human rights violations.

It shouldn't be that hard to understand this perspective, and yes, there are multiple perspectives at play, including those who did flee adverse conditions and I can respect those perspectives as well.

Far too much one dimensional thinking in this thread.

[alps]

Originally Posted by geotag277

Wow, that isn't unbiased at all. This reminds me of the memes of Harper being literally Hitler that the anti Harper crowd posted on Facebook.

Xi Jinping's reign has been a shift toward increasing totalitarianism and nationalism. It isn't "biased" to point that out.

Originally Posted by geotag277

Here's a thought. Maybe you don't understand and know everything there is to know about the Chinese political climate

None of us do. The government exercises strict control of the media.

Originally Posted by geotag277

Again, this is a mentality stuck in 1970s era China. [...] Yes, in 1970s there was a societal crisis in China, and many left during that time to flee those conditions. [...] Far too much one dimensional thinking in this thread.

Rampant human rights violations in China are not a thing of the past. Many of us weren't even alive in the 1970s so blaming criticism of the Chinese government on Cold War era thinking doesn't really hold up.

[dleung]

Kathleen Wynne had the exact same China-flag-raising event at Queens park, with no issue.

Just saying.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by dleung

Kathleen Wynne had the exact same China-flag-raising event at Queens park, with no issue.

Just saying.

I guess the ex-pat community is just more apathetic there. And doesn't she still have that Communist China shill in her cabinet? Though here as much of the outrage seems to be centred on the wearing of the red scarves, as a symbol of Communism.

[dleung]

Red scarves were all over the Toronto event too. Vancouver has always been "special" tho, when it comes to thinking it has any jurisdiction over foreign policy



The influence of dissent is what I love about this city though. I was at an open house for a clearly over-scaled downtown Toronto project a year ago, and was astounded by how complacent the neighbours were. They were grateful that the developer tweaked the design to give them 15m of tower separation instead of 13m (should be 25m). OMB rubber stamped it and it was good to go, despite breaking every rule in the planning guideline. That would never fly in Vancouver.

[Spocket]

Originally Posted by geotag277

So the idea that people come to this country and still hold their original country in high esteem is foreign to you? It is possible to be proud of both Canada and their original home country. There is no requirement to renounce your home country on immigration to Canada.

What's a flag ? It's a symbol of your country. You can embrace your home, that's fine. You can be proud of your roots. No problem. Putting your place of birth (which you CHOSE to leave) above the country that took you and provides you with much better conditions IS a problem. If you don't want to be Canadian then no problem ; I'm sure you know where the airport is.

Originally Posted by geotag277

Vancouver city hall offers this as a service and many flags have been flown there to any group who puts together the time to organize it.
I don't have any problem with this position, but it isn't being consistently applied.

I have a problem with it. I don't pay taxes to China. I don't get anything from the government of China. I don't care which flag is flown above the Canadian in Canada, it's not appropriate.

Originally Posted by geotag277

People come to Canada for a variety of reasons, and we can't really control why, outside of some asinine "values test" which consists of the question "why you want to come to Canada, to help us or to change us"?

We can't control what reasons people want to use to come to Canada but we CAN control who we let in. If they don't want to be Canadian then why do they want to come here ? Are we the world's hostel or something ? If they don't like it, that's fine. I'd prefer if they did but if they don't then they shouldn't expect us to integrate ourselves into their culture and demand we pay homage to their homeland.

Originally Posted by geotag277

Wow, that isn't unbiased at all. This reminds me of the memes of Harper being literally Hitler that the anti Harper crowd posted on Facebook.
Here's a thought. Maybe you don't understand and know everything there is to know about the Chinese political climate, and furthermore, while no political leader is perfect, just the fact that we don't have perfect political leaders is not grounds for the majority of the population to completely renounce their entire country and associate shame with their flag.

It seems to me that you know next to nothing about Xi JinPing's vision of China. I don't know how old you are but if you were around for the '80's then you should also be pretty familiar with Xi's brand of nationalism. Recognize this chant ? "U.S.A !, U.S.A.! ,U.S.A.!" Now imagine it as "ZhongGuo !, ZhongGuo !, ZhongGuo !" and you get the idea.

Originally Posted by geotag277

Again, this is a mentality stuck in 1970s era China. Not everyone who comes to Canada is "escaping conditions they were born into". Many modern individuals come from China these days simply because China is highly competitive, and Canada offers options in education and employment and otherwise that might not be offered domestically in China. Many want to go on adventures, many want to see the world. Many want to return to China after some time, and that is always their plan.

Okay, first of all, I live in China and have for several years now. Not sure if you noticed that. It gives me a pretty good idea of why people might want to leave this place. It's dirty. It's noisy. It's crowded and disorganized. People who want to leave do so for reasons that have nothing to do with money. If it weren't for such strong family connections, I suspect that at least half the people in China would leave tomorrow if they could. Obviously there are positive aspects to China or I would have left long ago but please, I live here and know this place pretty well. There are a lot of people that I've met who would leave for Canada if the requirements weren't so stringent.

As to the rest of your argument, you're basically saying that we should honor students, tourists, and capitalists above our own citizenry. Why would that make it a better argument exactly ? If they don't want to stay then why did they ever want to become citizens in the first place ? Canada isn't just a place to work in if you get your citizenship. I have Chinese friends who aren't citizens but rather are permanent residents. Their choice and I understand their reasons and have no problem with any of it. Just don't expect me to raise their flag above my own in my own country. They don't expect me to and I doubt they'd ever make such a dishonorable request either.

Originally Posted by geotag277

The inability of people to understand that and recognize that (and have empathy for that) is quite sad, and this "China is a special country with special people who are some different class of citizen" is very much a Cold War era artifact which reveals whose mentalities are literally decades out of date.

I don't know what the hell you're talking about here. Don't make claims you can't back up or relate to the matter at hand.

Originally Posted by geotag277

I'm not saying the Chinese government is perfect, no government is. I'm saying that the people who are coming here, especially over the past couple decades, are very proud of their country, despite the mistakes, and it is not far removed from Canadians flying the Canadian Flag even though Canada has a history with human rights violations.

Ah. You're absolutely right and that's why people are fleeing Canada for the peace and quiet of Iraq and North Korea. This silly false equivalence is why you have no pride in your country. It's not about what any government has done in the past. It's not a problem with China or Chinese government. It's about Canada and honoring the people who created it. I only raised the matter to underscore why facilitating "Rah, rah, rah !" Chinese nationalism in Canada isn't good for Canada.

Originally Posted by geotag277

It shouldn't be that hard to understand this perspective, and yes, there are multiple perspectives at play, including those who did flee adverse conditions and I can respect those perspectives as well.
Far too much one dimensional thinking in this thread.

I actually find you offensive. You don't even know what your flag represents. People from all over the world came to Canada and sacrificed so much to give you a standard of living matched by so few and you can't even show those people enough respect to fly your flag foremost in your own country. Nobody said people can't love their homeland but in Canada you should never have the expectation of flying the flag of your homeland above the one you chose. If you don't want to honor the Canadian flag then don't ask for citizenship in Canada.

I don't know any immigrants who would ever expect the Canadian flag to be flown in Canada below that of any other country for any reason. It would seem that they understand what it means and too many Canadians don't. Maybe it's because they know why they would rather be in Canada.