CHICAGO | 400 N Lake Shore Drive | 851 FT & 765 FT | 73 & ? FLOORS - Page 56

Skyguy_7 · #**1101** Posted **Jun 27, 2018, 8:57 PM**

These aren’t “new” renderings, Donnie. This is a design that failed to win the developer’s design competition, for which we are lucky.

Busy Bee · #**1102** Posted **Jun 27, 2018, 9:49 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

Lol, no.

The Sears Tower is probably one of the least bland buildings ever built. At the time it went up it was radical and striking. Just another big tapering stick is not bold, it is bland. 110 floors of a purely vertical wall with setbacks arranged in a series of bundled rectangular tubes that set back dramatically as the building rises all clad in a bold black facade is like the antithesis of bland. Especially in 1973.

Maybe it looks bland to you when viewed through the 2003 lens of "everything from the midcentury period is boring because it doesn't look like ye olde beige Parisian concrete manor", but no one alive at the time it was complaining it was boring. Complaints were largely thrown at it's radical size and big blocky massing. Nothing about that suggests a bland design, it suggests a design so bold that a lot of people couldn't handle it.

This runner up design is decent enough, but it's boring compared to the complex geometry and detailing of the winning design. I'm glad we are getting something more adventurous here.

The trope of "two angular shafts of different heights seemingly angled away from each other" has already played out in two large Manhattan developments alone including that ugly ass Hudson Yards tower with lame helipad thing sticking out of it. The losing design would be a notch above that, but it would represent a true regurgitation of the scheme. Obviously this firm was just designing to the client in an attempt to win the business. We should be lucky that Related actually did the right thing for once and picked something new and interesting instead of being like "we made lots of money last time we built two angular sticks, let's do it again" which is basically what this architect was proposing to them.

I think you misread the tenor of my comment. I'll just leave it at that.

ardecila · #**1103** Posted **Jun 28, 2018, 6:42 AM**

TBH I think the cladding on the SOM design is already dead. Not sure why the architects chose to show it so prominently in their presentation. Terra cotta is in vogue right now for a set of uber-luxury boutique midrises in NY, so I can see why SOM chose it, but using it on a supertall is a whole other ballgame.

It's not even about Related being cheap, it's just an extremely expensive system to engineer and build with a lot of unknowns. Highrise cladding systems are like designing the hull of a submarine, they have to be water tight under extreme conditions. I don't think terra cotta has ever done that before, when the material was originally being used . One Vanderbilt will have such a system, but nobody knows about the long term performance. If you're Related, why deal with the uncertainty?

PittsburghPA · #**1104** Posted **Jun 28, 2018, 7:30 AM**

Due to the clay rich soil in the area Chicago is a great candidate to manufacture such a system locally. We all know that the choice of construction materials is largely influenced by proximity to the site. I lived in Buffalo for three years and several prominent (to Buffalo's standards) projects used terra cotta. I am bullish on this being built as designed. I guess only time will tell...

ardecila · #**1105** Posted **Jun 28, 2018, 7:51 AM**

There are only two US manufacturers of terracotta, Boston Valley in Buffalo and Gladding-McBean in California. Chicago has historic expertise in this with American Terra Cotta and Northwest Terra Cotta but one is defunct and the other has shifted to metal fabrication and lost all terra cotta capability.

If SOM does manage to convince Related on this facade, they will absolutely use one of the two proven manufacturers.

Kumdogmillionaire · #**1106** Posted **Jun 28, 2018, 3:11 PM**

"I think the cladding is already dead"

Damn, more crystal balls in this place. I feel like the only person who isn't clairvoyent.

LouisVanDerWright · #**1107** Posted **Jun 28, 2018, 3:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila

TBH I think the cladding on the SOM design is already dead. Not sure why the architects chose to show it so prominently in their presentation. Terra cotta is in vogue right now for a set of uber-luxury boutique midrises in NY, so I can see why SOM chose it, but using it on a supertall is a whole other ballgame.

It's not even about Related being cheap, it's just an extremely expensive system to engineer and build with a lot of unknowns. Highrise cladding systems are like designing the hull of a submarine, they have to be water tight under extreme conditions. I don't think terra cotta has ever done that before, when the material was originally being used . One Vanderbilt will have such a system, but nobody knows about the long term performance. If you're Related, why deal with the uncertainty?

They are already installing terra cotta on a building that will be taller than this in NYC... It's not unproven and it will have no problem being water tight.

ChiHi · #**1108** Posted **Jun 28, 2018, 3:55 PM**

If anyone subscribes to WSJ there was an article about terra cotta being used in developments recently

https://www.wsj.com/articles/terra-c...ice-1530024302

harryc · #**1109** Posted **Jun 28, 2018, 3:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila

There are only two US manufacturers of terracotta, Boston Valley in Buffalo and Gladding-McBean in California. Chicago has historic expertise in this with American Terra Cotta and Northwest Terra Cotta but one is defunct and the other has shifted to metal fabrication and lost all terra cotta capability.

If SOM does manage to convince Related on this facade, they will absolutely use one of the two proven manufacturers.

At the presentation they mentioned a new way of extruding terracotta.

Investing In Chicago · #**1110** Posted **Jun 28, 2018, 4:02 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila

Terra cotta is in vogue right now for a set of uber-luxury boutique midrises in NY, so I can see why SOM chose it, but using it on a supertall is a whole other ballgame.

111 W 57th St is ~1,450ft tall (Which is nearly the same height as the Sears Tower) and is clad in Terra Cotta all the way up.
Not saying that has anything to do with the feasibility of using that product in Chicago, but it is used more than in "boutique midrises" in NYC.

left of center · #**1111** Posted **Jun 28, 2018, 4:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiHi

If anyone subscribes to WSJ there was an article about terra cotta being used in developments recently

https://www.wsj.com/articles/terra-c...ice-1530024302

Could anyone with a WSJ account outline the major points of this article?

ardecila · #**1112** Posted **Jun 29, 2018, 2:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

111 W 57th St is ~1,450ft tall (Which is nearly the same height as the Sears Tower) and is clad in Terra Cotta all the way up.
Not saying that has anything to do with the feasibility of using that product in Chicago, but it is used more than in "boutique midrises" in NYC.

Yes, and One Vanderbilt. But the price per SF you can charge in NY is so, so much more. For those developments, it's worth it to use an exotic material like terra cotta just for the competitive advantage they get from good design. 400 LSD, even at the tip-top of the Chicago market, won't have that kind of luxurious budget and I don't know if Chicago buyers will put up with that.

If I'm a hedge fund or tech millionaire, why would I pay an extreme price per SF at 400 LSD for a 3BR when I could go buy a 5BR penthouse in another building with the same or similar views? Just less value placed on prestige in this market IMO.

Kumdogmillionaire · #**1113** Posted **Jun 29, 2018, 3:38 PM**

If you look at the renderings, you'll notice that there isn't that much terracotta actually on the building's surface. It's mostly accenting. You are overrating how much it'll cost them by so much, and it's very entertaining.

Steely Dan · #**1114** Posted **Jun 29, 2018, 4:00 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumdogmillionaire

If you look at the renderings, you'll notice that there isn't that much terracotta actually on the building's surface. It's mostly accenting.

that was my thought as well.

the exterior of the building seems to be >75% glass.

that doesn't mean related still won't VE the terra-cotta out, but we're not not talking about the woolworth building here or anything like that.

KWillChicago · #**1115** Posted **Jun 29, 2018, 5:04 PM**

If they keep it as the rendering without a VE this is a must build.

Investing In Chicago · #**1116** Posted **Jun 29, 2018, 6:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila

Yes, and One Vanderbilt. But the price per SF you can charge in NY is so, so much more. For those developments, it's worth it to use an exotic material like terra cotta just for the competitive advantage they get from good design. 400 LSD, even at the tip-top of the Chicago market, won't have that kind of luxurious budget and I don't know if Chicago buyers will put up with that.

If I'm a hedge fund or tech millionaire, why would I pay an extreme price per SF at 400 LSD for a 3BR when I could go buy a 5BR penthouse in another building with the same or similar views? Just less value placed on prestige in this market IMO.

I agree. I was just correcting this statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila

Terra cotta is in vogue right now for a set of uber-luxury boutique midrises in NY, so I can see why SOM chose it, but using it on a supertall is a whole other ballgame.

VKChaz · #**1117** Posted **Jun 30, 2018, 3:08 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by left of center

Could anyone with a WSJ account outline the major points of this article?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/terra-c...ice-1530024302

I have a hardcopy, but the link seems to be open for everyone at the moment. Not much content..article indicates more buyers are seeking a traditional aesthetic, creating demand for terra cotta, the two US manufacturers have seen demand surge in recent years. Four condo examples featured - three in Manhattan (Fitzroy, 11 Beach Street, 207 W 79th Street) and one in San Diego (Pacific Gate Condominiums).

maru2501 · #**1118** Posted **Jun 30, 2018, 4:23 PM**

probably the most high-profile site in the city, so if they VE it into crap, it will be more than just us nerds on here who notice

ardecila · #**1119** Posted **Jul 1, 2018, 4:01 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

that was my thought as well.

the exterior of the building seems to be >75% glass.

that doesn't mean related still won't VE the terra-cotta out, but we're not not talking about the woolworth building here or anything like that.

Looks to be about the same proportion of terra-cotta to glass as the Reliance Building, though.

And we're not talking about random terra cotta details like fins or accent panels that can just be clipped onto an off-the-shelf curtain wall. Literally every vertical element and every spandrel is terra cotta which needs to be installed and set in something approaching the traditional way, probably with stainless clips and real honest to god mortar which is, yes, basically what the Woolworth Building used.

I love the appearance of this, I'm just trying to be realistic. This is an inordinately expensive cladding system for a highrise, and we've never seen systems this costly even on towers that serve the tip-top of the Chicago market like Vista (although to be fair, Vista is very complex structurally while this is very simple). Our city is not exactly awash in oil sheikhs and Chinese billionaires, either.

Unitizing the cladding into panels could bring down the cost quite a bit, if all the hard work can be done on the ground and then panels lifted into place. But that will change the appearance of the system, at the very least with more, and more noticeable, seams.

Kumdogmillionaire · #**1120** Posted **Jul 1, 2018, 4:07 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardecila

Looks to be about the same proportion of terra-cotta to glass as the Reliance Building, though.

And we're not talking about random terra cotta details like fins or accent panels that can just be clipped onto an off-the-shelf curtain wall. Literally every vertical element and every spandrel is terra cotta which needs to be installed and set in something approaching the traditional way, probably with stainless clips and real honest to god mortar.

Definitely as good of a comparison as you'll get but, still about 20% less than that building even and way less detailing.