[Moncton] Centre Avenir Centre | 26.65m |~6 Fl | Completed

[Ire Narissis]

It boggles my mind that Moncton has no parking structures at all, while Saint John has multiple... plus a lot of surface parking at Harbour Station.

Have none of the city planners from Moncton ever visited Saint John during a big event at HS? If they had, they might've noticed that pretty much all the available parking fills up... which might be a clue as to what sort of facilities Moncton needs in order to support parking demand created by the same kind of venue...

Especially in an even larger metro area that's just as sprawled out, with eventgoers similarly coming in from the 'burbs.

[tmacdougall]

Note this is primitive research at best but there is an online article (2014) that I read stating the cost to build an above ground parking garage in Toronto would likely cost approximately $35,000 per space.

100 spaces - $3,500,000
200 spaces - $7,000,000
300 spaces - $10,500,000
500 spaces - $17,500,000

This is why you don't have entrepreneurs chomping at the bit to build parking garages.

Just imagine the cost recovery?

Am I out to lunch on this topic or am I somewhat on track?

[JHikka]

The 446-space Peel Plaza Garage in SJ was built for $20M and it's built on the side of a hill ($45K/space). I'm not an engineer but I'm guessing flat ground would be easier than hillside to build on.

Why should entrepreneurs be chomping at the bit to build parking garages? It should be the city leading the development - it's in their best interest to build garages so that they have a mandate in place to reduce surface parking. Saint John has actually done well in this initiative - provide parking garages and shutter the private surface lots. Create incentive for entrepreneurs to build on those lots instead of letting them sit.

Parking garages are almost always going to be money losers on their own, but if you consider the economic impact of getting people into town and spending money/working it'll even out for ROI for the city as a whole.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by tmacdougall

Am I out to lunch on this topic or am I somewhat on track?

Not out to lunch no. Discussion of parking issues related to the events centre is fair game IMHO.

Enclosed parking is expensive to build - no question; but the costs might be a little less here than in TO (land acquisition at any rate).

In any event, parking structures will ultimately be needed in the core as the downtown develops and densifies. The events centre should be a catalyst for this inevitability.

I agree with JHikka, it should be the city taking the lead on this issue, rather than sticking it's head in the sand........

[Sandbagger]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The 446-space Peel Plaza Garage in SJ was built for $20M and it's built on the side of a hill ($45K/space). I'm not an engineer but I'm guessing flat ground would be easier than hillside to build on.

I go to probably a half dozen events at Harbour Station every year and I park at Peel every time. Never had a problem getting in, it's like a 1 minute walk down to the pedway and I've never waited more than maybe 5-10 minutes to get out after. It's a really good setup IMO.

[Sunnybrae]

Originally Posted by Feneant

I don't understand why the downtown businesses don't raise a stink, they will be severely impacted by this because they, like the event center, have no dedicated parking. Places like Vien Dong, the Taj Mahal, Piato's, etc. will all take a hit in their patrons every night something will be scheduled at the center.

And god forbid they make the mistake of scheduling a show at the capitol the same night as a concert at the event center on a Friday evening, you will have hundreds of cars with nowhere to park unless people accept a 30-45 minute walk from Champlain place.

Wow, never really thought about that situation of a "perfect storm" where it could be a holiday weekend, and there are multiple events going on downtown plus a concert at the events centre and the Capital. Will turn into a total mess down there.

Oh and not to mention the causeway being closed for six months and the construction of Hotels. Oh boy!

[tmacdougall]

For a parking garage to be worth building it must generate $200/space/month.

Quick math

500 space parking garage x $200 = $100,000 x 12 months = $1,200,000/yr.

Assuming my math is correct and it costs $35,000/space = $17,500,000

Total cost recovery = $17,500,000/$1,200,000 = roughly 14.5 yrs.

Anyone got $17,500,000 laying around?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by tmacdougall

Anyone got $17,500,000 laying around?

Your price tag of $17.5M is on the assumption that building a parking garage in Moncton is as expensive as it would be to build one in Toronto. I find this tremendously difficult to believe.

Again, this is less about parking garages breaking even (spoiler: they won't) and more about generating general economic activity in the area they service, as well as freeing up space for surface lots to be developed.

Anecdotally, if Moncton has parking garages I'm much more likely to visit downtown than I am if the only options I have are street or lot parking. I'm sure I'm not alone on that.

[Sunnybrae]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Your price tag of $17.5M is on the assumption that building a parking garage in Moncton is as expensive as it would be to build one in Toronto. I find this tremendously difficult to believe.

Again, this is less about parking garages breaking even (spoiler: they won't) and more about generating general economic activity in the area they service, as well as freeing up space for surface lots to be developed.

Anecdotally, if Moncton has parking garages I'm much more likely to visit downtown than I am if the only options I have are street or lot parking. I'm sure I'm not alone on that.

But didn't you say it was 20M for one in Saint John on a hill? Knock a couple of mill off for flat land and its not that unreasonable.

[felip_ars]

Originally Posted by Sunnybrae

Wow, never really thought about that situation of a "perfect storm" where it could be a holiday weekend, and there are multiple events going on downtown plus a concert at the events centre and the Capital. Will turn into a total mess down there.

Oh and not to mention the causeway being closed for six months and the construction of Hotels. Oh boy!

You dont even need a "Perfect Storm" situation to think that they will be issues.
This Centre is suppose to be the catalyst of Downtown, but it wont help much if people knows not to get there during events (which supposedly there will be around 100 per year, so one every 3 days approx).

- Honey, wanna go get dinner Downtown tonight?
- Are you kidding? The Cats are playing, it'll take us 30 minutes just to find a spot

Also, lets not forget all the free events happening around Main street during the Summer. The Atlantic Nationals are in July, where a lots of big acts will be nearby for Ottawa Bluesfest and Quebec Summer Festivals. Maybe SMG would think twice about booking if they know that ppl might not show up because of it.

Or worse...could u imagine the Santa Claus Parade the same day as a high profile concert!!!

My guess is that the City will start drafting a parking plan the day after the opening event when front page newspapers will have "Metallica (one of my guess) rocks Moncton New Centre, while thousands search for parking spot" as their headline

[Sunnybrae]

I was thinking back to some of the things people have said about Dawn Arnold not seeing the big picture about parking downtown. The current mayor (not defending her) will be stuck with a mess sooner or later but this is not entirely her fault. To point fingers, where the heck was George Leblanc's head in all this when he was in charge? Did he mickey-mouse this whole thing and not include parking structures in the budgets he approved just to keep costs down so he could get approval? Would be interesting to hear his comments now on all this considering he created the situation.

[Ammn_guy]

It would be great if this was solved by day 1 but.. i think that sometimes.. in all things business you need to create a large demand before private investors will answer it. The city does not want to invest in parking that is obvious, they are hoping private developers will do this and although there are smaller groups being vocal about this issue, no one is really sure how big the demand will be until things play out.
Private developers will do nothing until they are confident of demand, if there is a threat that the city will announce giant parking garage behind the center, there would be no point in them investing in their own lot

This will take time to play out. By not building parking it will probably drive up the cost of parking up downtown.. maybe even to that break--even point of $125 a month, where by previous studies have said parking garages become feasible..

Maybe people will even take the bus.. which will up bus usage, paying for better transit routes etc.. I agree its a change..and it will take years to sort out but most City's have gone thru this, we just happen to be car obsessed Atlantic Canadians, who are used to getting everywhere in 10 minutes, with at least one Tim's enroute. Instead of a parking garage would a 5 million dollar investment in the transit system solve 75% of this parking issue i wonder.

Maybe Instead of sitting in the coliseum parking lot for 30 minutes trying to get out of the parking lot.. maybe now we have to spend that time walking to a our spot or taking the bus... welcome to the verge of becoming a big city, With carbon Tax's looming i question how much longer our car culture will continue to flourish. Definitely will be in for a few long cold walks for the next few years though...

[tmacdougall]

If $125 is the break even point, the city would have already sold their parking structure off of Church St. It's currently at $170/space now. From what I am hearing, private investors will only begin looking at purchasing the parking structure once it hits $200/space.

Originally Posted by Ammn_guy

It would be great if this was solved by day 1 but.. i think that sometimes.. in all things business you need to create a large demand before private investors will answer it. The city does not want to invest in parking that is obvious, they are hoping private developers will do this and although there are smaller groups being vocal about this issue, no one is really sure how big the demand will be until things play out.
Private developers will do nothing until they are confident of demand, if there is a threat that the city will announce giant parking garage behind the center, there would be no point in them investing in their own lot

This will take time to play out. By not building parking it will probably drive up the cost of parking up downtown.. maybe even to that break--even point of $125 a month, where by previous studies have said parking garages become feasible..

Maybe people will even take the bus.. which will up bus usage, paying for better transit routes etc.. I agree its a change..and it will take years to sort out but most City's have gone thru this, we just happen to be car obsessed Atlantic Canadians, who are used to getting everywhere in 10 minutes, with at least one Tim's enroute. Instead of a parking garage would a 5 million dollar investment in the transit system solve 75% of this parking issue i wonder.

Maybe Instead of sitting in the coliseum parking lot for 30 minutes trying to get out of the parking lot.. maybe now we have to spend that time walking to a our spot or taking the bus... welcome to the verge of becoming a big city, With carbon Tax's looming i question how much longer our car culture will continue to flourish. Definitely will be in for a few long cold walks for the next few years though...

[Ammn_guy]

That is true (not sure the price) but it is the most expensive structure downtown.. generally parking is available.. for 50-75 a month if you look for it, i pay 50 a month and there's 2 spaces empty in our lot for 4-5 months now. The study i remember was probably quite few years ago.. 200 a spot probralby makes sense.

Originally Posted by tmacdougall

If $125 is the break even point, the city would have already sold their parking structure off of Church St. It's currently at $170/space now. From what I am hearing, private investors will only begin looking at purchasing the parking structure once it hits $200/space.

[Philbilly]

You guys are also forgetting the maintenance cost of a parking garage per year. I think it in the few hundred$ per space if I'm correct ?

[MonctonRad]

Ultimately, it doesn't matter what the capital and maintenance costs of enclosed parking garages are or will be.

- Enclosed parking garages will be necessary because there will be a parking crisis in the core. This will impact on the viability of downtown businesses and will impact attendance at Wildcats games and concerts and performances at the events centre and at the Capitol Theatre.
- There will be increased densification and intensification in the core as the city matures, and a lot of this will occur on pre-existing surface lots which will be repurposed for commercial, residential and retail uses. As surface parking disappears, parking garages will have to be built.

It is inevitable. The city should get ahead of the curve and start planning for parking structures now. Truth be told, they should have been doing this 2-3 years ago.........

To not plan for the inevitable is the height of folly........

[riverviewer]

Unless Moncton starts a "Go Fund Me" campaign for these 20 million dollar parking structures I'm not sure where you think they'll get the money for it.

Leaving the arena half full might mean less profits for hockey owners, and might scare off big concert promoters, but it might also be the prudent thing to do in the short term until the majority of tax-payers is inconvenienced enough to vote in a council that's pro-parking.

[MonctonRad]

Other cities do it. Smaller cities do it. Fredericton, Saint John and Charlottetown all have multiple parking structures in their core. Why is it that Moncton is incapable of doing the same?????

[Leafcat16]

My 2 cents worth

Right now the Mayor and city council only have a perceived parking issue DT. (albeit one that most likely will become reality)

If they were to invest a large sum of tax-payer money into a parking structure now, they would be open to criticism. Who can say with 100% certainty there will be an issue? No one can and that is why somebody would say it was a waste of money, that's just politics unfortunately!

If they wait for the issue to become real, then there is more political capital for the Mayor and city council to justify the investment that, more than likely, will not make money.

In a perfect world the parking issue would be solved concurrent to the opening of the Centre, but that ship has sailed IMO. We'll get there eventually...it will just take time. My concern is that the momentum of our DT's growth may suffer as a result.

[Ammn_guy]

Although it may slow the development push that is currently happening that was caused by the dt center, i am wondering if a second wave of say parking development may continue and/or restart and lengthen the development push.. causing a more sustainable consistent 10 yr development, instead of having like 2 yrs of development then a 10 yr gap.

Originally Posted by Leafcat16

My 2 cents worth

Right now the Mayor and city council only have a perceived parking issue DT. (albeit one that most likely will become reality)

If they were to invest a large sum of tax-payer money into a parking structure now, they would be open to criticism. Who can say with 100% certainty there will be an issue? No one can and that is why somebody would say it was a waste of money, that's just politics unfortunately!

If they wait for the issue to become real, then there is more political capital for the Mayor and city council to justify the investment that, more than likely, will not make money.

In a perfect world the parking issue would be solved concurrent to the opening of the Centre, but that ship has sailed IMO. We'll get there eventually...it will just take time. My concern is that the momentum of our DT's growth may suffer as a result.