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  #61  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 3:28 AM
aquablue aquablue is offline
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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
Quite honestly, traffic is part of the cityscape IMHO and not just cars but all kinds of traffic including, in my city, cable cars.

This is Union Square, the heart of San Francisco's shopping district. I fail to see how removing the cars, taxis, tour busses, cable cars etc etc from the perimeter streets would make it more interesting.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tymg...&frags=pl%2Cwn

Their popularity in the rest of the world can't be denied.

Last edited by aquablue; Jul 11, 2018 at 3:56 AM.
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  #62  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 3:56 AM
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Madison, Wisconsin has a very successful and vibrant mostly pedestrian (Buses are allowed) street. Burlington, Vermont also has a nice downtown pedestrian area. Not sure why more bigger US cities don't try this on at least their main shopping streets I guess Boston does this on Washington St. downtown, and I think it works pretty well.

Some good candidates:

- Boston's Newbury St. (it's not even a major street so there would be few consequences)
- Chicago's North Michigan Ave (probably leaving a lane each way for buses + ambulances and moving private cars underground... but the hotels would still probably complain like hell.)
- Philly's Walnut St. (Can keep it open for buses, I guess).
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  #63  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 3:59 AM
DZH22 DZH22 is online now
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
I don't get why Americans are against them.
First of all, this is just a dumb thing to say. Who says Americans are "against" pedestrian streets? How about try getting your information straight instead of assuming that Dallas is somehow a proper stand-in for all American cities.

Here's a list of pedestrian malls in the United States. I count over 50.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedest..._United_States

If you go to "North America" in the below link you will see even more. This one includes Downtown Crossing in Boston, which I posted a picture of earlier in this thread.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedest...#United_States

From an urban perspective in the US, it goes Northeast Megalopolis plus San Francisco and Chicago, then rest of the coasts, then rest of the midwest, then the Southeast, and finally Texas and the Southwest, which is where you seem to be harping on the most. Get over yourself. I notice you never mention Boston, because it doesn't fit your narrative. You cherry pick the worst the United States has to offer and say "see, I'm right." All you really are is full of hot air.

Last edited by DZH22; Jul 11, 2018 at 10:43 AM.
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  #64  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 4:16 AM
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Flippant answer - Chinese students, get enough of them and it'll turn any town into a vibrant hub as they wander around getting tea and sweet pastries at 3 am.
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  #65  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 4:28 AM
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Several possibly controversial reasons, IMHO.
1) Lack of downtown parking,
2) Expansive transit networks,
3) Limited number of big cities, all of which are next to oceans and have relatively pleasant climates conducive to walking,
4) Generally harmonious race relations. They never bought into the idea that they needed to import a permanent servant class, (we Americans sadly still do to a large extent),, and thus if you go to Australia, the maid, janitor, construction worker, and lawn/pool guy are all white and speak perfect English. There is no nationwide subculture that takes pride in its shunning of strong communication skills. That being said, differences in class or status are less noticeable, and less segregated. For example, I met a homeless guy at church in Melbourne who spoke better English than many American public school teachers.
5) Less income inequality. See above about not importing a permanent servant class and not replenishing it in order to suppress wage growth or gain newly minted and loyal voting blocs.
6) Downtown areas appear to serve as regional shopping hubs and University hubs as well as office employment hubs.
7) All of the above have contributed to a situation where the value of the location is largely driven by the proximity to the central business district. Hence, more people live downtown.
8) Chinese demand for raw materials.
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Last edited by Reverberation; Jul 11, 2018 at 10:34 AM.
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  #66  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 5:00 AM
aquablue aquablue is offline
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Originally Posted by Doady View Post
I am sure Dallas and Houston have plenty of underground parking already, likely way, way more than any European and Australian city.

Ultimately if Dallas and Houston want to become like a European city and get rid og the surface parking, they need more transit and get the cars out of the CBD. 1% or 2% transit mode share is simply not enough to become European.
Transit is just one part of the picture though. It goes beyond that, one needs to be looking at the way the CBD is developed. Even if the city is well served, you can have a boring downtown if there isnt enough retail or mixed-use development. Example: Washington, D.C, which is still rather corporate outside of a few small areas of retail in the city center. It certainly could be far more lively given its extensive metro system.

Last edited by aquablue; Jul 11, 2018 at 5:21 AM.
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  #67  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 6:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
Transit is just one part of the picture though. It goes beyond that, one needs to be looking at the way the CBD is developed. Even if the city is well served, you can have a boring downtown if there isnt enough retail or mixed-use development. Example: Washington, D.C, which is still rather corporate outside of a few small areas of retail in the city center. It certainly could be far more lively given its extensive metro system.
Here in Toronto, the Financial District is mostly corporate too. Downtown is a larger area. Looking beyond, it is hard to characterize downtown DC as boring, judging from Google Street View. It seems very lively and densely built up city. Am I wrong?
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  #68  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 6:14 AM
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Originally Posted by SIGSEGV View Post
Madison, Wisconsin has a very successful and vibrant mostly pedestrian (Buses are allowed) street. Burlington, Vermont also has a nice downtown pedestrian area. Not sure why more bigger US cities don't try this on at least their main shopping streets I guess Boston does this on Washington St. downtown, and I think it works pretty well.

Some good candidates:

- Boston's Newbury St. (it's not even a major street so there would be few consequences)
- Chicago's North Michigan Ave (probably leaving a lane each way for buses + ambulances and moving private cars underground... but the hotels would still probably complain like hell.)
- Philly's Walnut St. (Can keep it open for buses, I guess).
SF has a few "shopping allies" like Maiden Lane off Union Square:




https://www.google.com/search?q=Maid...SqvMwZiR6yy1M:
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  #69  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 7:15 AM
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
The decentralized city is not a good idea unless you are as huge as a Tokyo. And build those high density apartments around transit hubs and near the center.
Decentralisation is what Sydney's headed towards to a degree. The CBD is skewed more than 10 miles to the east of the city's geographic centre. The ideal is to create a "30 minute city" to shorten commuting distances for residents across the metro. Sounds good on paper... but whether or not it'll actually work we'll have to wait and see. At least most development is happening where there's transit and amenities, around those hubs I mentioned before. Sydney CBD is getting its share of development as well, and will continue to be the largest most significant hub.

The other Australian cities though are remaining mostly centralised.
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  #70  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 8:20 AM
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Some cities are "vibrant" only in the sense that shopping malls are "vibrant" - wholesome, middle class people walking around immaculately clean streets, shopping and dining. That stuff is boring to me.

I much prefer the grittier frenzied vibe of big North American cities.
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  #71  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 8:28 AM
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
Pedestrian malls are in the most vibrant cities in the world. It's only N. American cities that somehow are above them, I don't get it.
There are plenty of pedestrian malls in North America, but they are mostly relegated to the suburbs.
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  #72  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 8:54 AM
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
Some cities are "vibrant" only in the sense that shopping malls are "vibrant" - wholesome, middle class people walking around immaculately clean streets, shopping and dining. That stuff is boring to me.

I much prefer the grittier frenzied vibe of big North American cities.
So you enjoy seeing other people suffer homelessness, addiction, crime, mental health issues and poverty because it adds to the ‘vibe’? Personally, I think that is a heartless view and reeks of privileged naivety.
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  #73  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 9:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Commentariat View Post
So you enjoy seeing other people suffer homelessness, addiction, crime, mental health issues and poverty because it adds to the ‘vibe’? Personally, I think that is a heartless view and reeks of privileged naivety.
Who said anything about homelessness, addiction, crime, mental health issues and poverty? Take all that away and the city centers of big North American cities would still have the same buzz and excitement. That just comes with being in the beating heart of a huge and diverse metropolis. They are vibrant because they are rich, diverse and eclectic cultural centers, not because they're glorified shopping malls.
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  #74  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Doady View Post
Here in Toronto, the Financial District is mostly corporate too. Downtown is a larger area. Looking beyond, it is hard to characterize downtown DC as boring, judging from Google Street View. It seems very lively and densely built up city. Am I wrong?
It's not boring but the core of the cbd is very office centric. Most of the new housing development is in cbd-adjacent areas
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  #75  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 1:55 PM
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Originally Posted by aquablue View Post
Do American just love walking around beside traffic or something?
perhaps.

here in chicago, back in the late 70s when the state street retail corridor was really hurting, city planners took a 9 block stretch of it and turned it into a big giant pedestrian mall (with buses) in an effort to revitalize state street.

it didn't work, state street retail continued to decline. in 1996, after 17 years of being pedestrianized, the change was deemed to be a colossal failure, so state street was once again opened back up to automobile traffic and the street came back to life as one of chicago's great shopping streets (though still in the shadow of the mag mile).

so maybe american really do prefer walking along a big busy traffic-clogged city street
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  #76  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 2:12 PM
Commentariat Commentariat is offline
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Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
Who said anything about homelessness, addiction, crime, mental health issues and poverty? Take all that away and the city centers of big North American cities would still have the same buzz and excitement. That just comes with being in the beating heart of a huge and diverse metropolis. They are vibrant because they are rich, diverse and eclectic cultural centers, not because they're glorified shopping malls.
So if Australian, European and Canadian downtowns got rid of all their shops and all the pesky shoppers they could be as vibrant as US downtowns. Yet strangely none of them have adopted this approach to urban development.
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  #77  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 2:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Doady View Post
I am sure Dallas and Houston have plenty of underground parking already, likely way, way more than any European and Australian city.

Ultimately if Dallas and Houston want to become like a European city and get rid og the surface parking, they need more transit and get the cars out of the CBD. 1% or 2% transit mode share is simply not enough to become European.
Houston can't have a lot of underground parking; the city suffers from devastating flooding all too frequently and we're not fully recovered from Harvey. Our geography precludes us from having subways, underground parking and anything else that involves digging. What little we do have (downtown pedestrian tunnels and limited u/g parking gets destroyed every time there's a flood.

Houston is also multi-nodal in that downtown really isn't the center of activity though there's a lot of new development in the way of residential and amenities. We're at least a decade off until downtown can't remotely compare to other cities
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  #78  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 2:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
so maybe american really do prefer walking along a big busy traffic-clogged city street
The pedestrian mall movement coincided with the deepest decline in urban America (basically 1970's and early 1980's).

So it's a correlation, not a causation, IMO. I doubt State Street "failed" because cars were removed, nor did it improve because cars were added back.

I remember walking State Street as a child, when it was still a pedestrian zone, and it was quite busy and vibrant, BTW. It doesn't seem notably busier today, though it's less honky-tonk and seems to have different patronage.
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  #79  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 2:21 PM
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A good analogue to State Street would be Fulton Street in downtown Brooklyn. Both were department store laden high streets that went into deep postwar decline, and converted to pedestrian malls in the late 70's. Both were kinda honky tonk and particularly popular with African American shoppers (which, frankly, probably drove some white shoppers away).

But Fulton Street never removed its pedestrian mall, and it, like State Street, is healthier than 20 years ago, and, in particular, more upscale and different demographic.

Downtown Crossing in Boston would be another example, and followed similar trajectory. Still a pedestrian mall, and improved/upscaled from past years.
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  #80  
Old Posted Jul 11, 2018, 2:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
perhaps.

here in chicago, back in the late 70s when the state street retail corridor was really hurting, city planners took a 9 block stretch of it and turned it into a big giant pedestrian mall (with buses) in an effort to revitalize state street.

it didn't work, state street retail continued to decline. in 1996, after 17 years of being pedestrianized, the change was deemed to be a colossal failure, so state street was once again opened back up to automobile traffic and the street came back to life as one of chicago's great shopping streets (though still in the shadow of the mag mile).

so maybe american really do prefer walking along a big busy traffic-clogged city street

Adds to the hustle and bustle to city life in my opinion. Makes me feel like I'm in a happening place.
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