Is MARTA ready for it's closeup??

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This model will work regardless of density as it is based on catchment population. You drive to a station and ride the train into the city.

No, it won't because there will only be 1/4th as many people in the same area around each station so the cost per rider will essentially be multiplied by 4. Theoretically people could just drive twice as far to each station, but a lot of those commutes wouldn't make any sense as people would have to drive well out of their way which would end up taking far longer.

I mean, just take your argument that density doesn't matter and apply it to a place with 1 person per square mile and you'll clearly see such an area can't support transit. Density is everything when it comes to transit economics.

[electricron]

MARTA should be. But I'm certain its trains will not help much with the burnt down freeway traffic because you can see the end of the line maintenance sheds in the background. In other words, the trains don't go where the effected traffic comes from.

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by electricron

MARTA should be. But I'm certain its trains will not help much with the burnt down freeway traffic because you can see the end of the line maintenance sheds in the background. In other words, the trains don't go where the effected traffic comes from.

That's not the end of the line.

[mhays]

The sheds appear to connect to trains running both north and south...ie not the end of the line. Train maintenance can happen anywhere along the line, and doesn't have to be (and probably typically isn't) at the end.

Apparently it's helping fill the gap. Not for everybody but for a sizeable chunk.

Ideally people would rally around and do what's most helpful for the whole city -- carpool, live on a friend's couch close to work for a few weeks, take a vacation, whatever. But what's helpful for the whole city might be inconvenient for an individual...carpooling might not save time for the driver or rider, just other people who have one fewer car to compete with.

As for density helping transit use, of course it does, while being influenced by other factors as well.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

No, it won't because there will only be 1/4th as many people in the same area around each station so the cost per rider will essentially be multiplied by 4. Theoretically people could just drive twice as far to each station, but a lot of those commutes wouldn't make any sense as people would have to drive well out of their way which would end up taking far longer.

I mean, just take your argument that density doesn't matter and apply it to a place with 1 person per square mile and you'll clearly see such an area can't support transit. Density is everything when it comes to transit economics.

Obviously if there is 1 person per square mile, there will not be the catchment population either.

However, if density is one quarter, then people will be travelling 4 times further as well.

My point is that Toronto and Atlanta have similar metro populations therefore more extensive rail service should be possible.

Toronto is proving that rail service does not have to be limited to the urban area.

This is not the same as subway or LRT service with stations every mile or less. We are talking about long distance commuter rail service with stations every 10 miles. Yes, people have to drive a distance to a station but if the roads are congested, then this becomes attractive.

I believe the whole point of this thread is about the impact of a closed expressway, which means greater road congestion. I assume that Atlanta has its share of road congestion even under normal circumstances. At some point, congestion will create a demand for an alternative if it is offered.

[dabcom]

Didn't Atlanta, or the metro area, pass a tax recently to expand the MARTA system?

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

If Toronto can do it, why can't Atlanta? There simply needs to be the political will as is described in the above article, which was published just yesterday.

Using the comment that the city is not on a peninsula is simply an excuse. If anything, not having geographical constraints makes it easier to extend service. You don't need to tunnel under San Francisco Bay at enormous cost.

The Bay Area equivalent to MARTA, BART does go to some pretty distant suburbs and more all the time (the Warm Springs extension almost to San Jose just opened and the extension that goes THROUGH San Jose is about ready to get built). But the system also goes out to Pleasanton in the direction of the Central Valley and has a connection to a diesel extention called e-BART that will bring it to Antioch. It is 45 miles from Antioch to downtown SF; 40 miles from Pleasanton to downtown SF, almost 50 miles from Warm Springs to downtown SF.


https://www.pinterest.com/timoig/map...cisco/?lp=true

San Francisco (the city) has its own transit network called Muni or the SF Municipal Railway which does not and does not want to cross the Bay or extend down the Peninsula. The rail portion of the system looks like this (a new Central Subway connecting the T-line at 4th & King to Chinatown via SOMA and Union Square is under construction, due to open in 2 years):


https://www.pinterest.com/pin/41165784067190992/

[Ant131531]

Originally Posted by dabcom

Didn't Atlanta, or the metro area, pass a tax recently to expand the MARTA system?

Yes, but only in the city itself, not the suburbs. That's the problem. Is it worth hassling these suburban counties if they don't want MARTA vs. just expanding it in the city itself?


Atlanta is at this point far too sprawled to reasonably expand MARTA in every direction and unlike many other cities, Atlanta generally uses almost all of it's rail lines so using old rail lines and commuter rail is almost impossible.

[lrt's friend]

Toronto's rail lines are active freight lines as well. This has limited the number of Go Transit commuter runs. What is happening now is double tracking, triple tracking and even quadruple tracking to allow for both freight service and frequent commuter service. This has been a big and expensive challenge but the politicians have now decided that they need to face this challenge. Building more highways can be equally expensive. As I said, there needs to be the political will. But the starting point is to schedule in commuter trains on freight lines. Obviously MARTA itself is more of an urban service, but there is a need for longer distance service. You start small and as the highways get more congested, demand for commuter rail will increase.

I don't live in Toronto, but what will be happening there in the next 10 years will demonstrate what is possible in a large city that has experienced a lot of growth in the last generation.

[dabcom]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Yes, but only in the city itself, not the suburbs. That's the problem. Is it worth hassling these suburban counties if they don't want MARTA vs. just expanding it in the city itself?


Atlanta is at this point far too sprawled to reasonably expand MARTA in every direction and unlike many other cities, Atlanta generally uses almost all of it's rail lines so using old rail lines and commuter rail is almost impossible.

Fine, expand it in the city then. I'm sure there are still underserved communities that still need it.

[electricron]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Atlanta is at this point far too sprawled to reasonably expand MARTA in every direction and unlike many other cities, Atlanta generally uses almost all of it's rail lines so using old rail lines and commuter rail is almost impossible.

To conquerer the task of serving sprawled neighborhoods in the sticks, they need to be paying transit taxes as well. Transit agencies usually only service neighborhoods and communities playing their taxes. Once they are paying the taxes, the agency's board of directors can determine how and when to service them. It doesn't always have to be with trains.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by austlar1

Over the next several weeks and months, MARTA rail is going to be put to the test. It is the single best alternative for commuters hoping to avoid the massive traffic snarl caused by the fire and collapse of a key part of the Atlanta freeway system. Ridership on trains (and buses) is likely to gain huge numbers. It should be interesting to see whether some of these new transit users stick and stay once the highway system is restored to working order. It would be interesting to hear anecdotal reporting on how MARTA is holding up during this period.

MARTA had its 'closeup' 21 years ago this Summer during the Olympics, when their trains routinely transported 1 million + daily with the same rail footprint we have now.

They're up for it. Anyone familiar with the system can attest that it is built for much more capacity than it currently serves - it has fantastic bones.

[cabasse]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Yes, but only in the city itself, not the suburbs. That's the problem. Is it worth hassling these suburban counties if they don't want MARTA vs. just expanding it in the city itself?


Atlanta is at this point far too sprawled to reasonably expand MARTA in every direction and unlike many other cities, Atlanta generally uses almost all of it's rail lines so using old rail lines and commuter rail is almost impossible.

i'm a bit more optimistic myself on it - there are good chances for cobb and gwinnett to join sometime in the next years, which would complete the original intended 5 county partnership with marta. rail up to cumberland/marietta and towards duluth would be nothing less than massive for the area, combined with some of the intended streetcar expansion inside the beltline and along the clifton corridor, the latter of which is just about inevitable.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by cabasse

i'm a bit more optimistic myself on it - there are good chances for cobb and gwinnett to join sometime in the next years, which would complete the original intended 5 county partnership with marta. rail up to cumberland/marietta and towards duluth would be nothing less than massive for the area, combined with some of the intended streetcar expansion inside the beltline and along the clifton corridor, the latter of which is just about inevitable.

Exactly. Along with the Red Line extension to Alpharetta, which would be just huge for the Metro. The majority of residents up there have been clamoring for it for years, and the companies wish it were there yesterday.

[Ueeediot]

i wonder how much that 25% increase will grow over the next couple of weeks or if it will not. I think the true measure will be on Monday, 4/10 when the local schools get back from spring break.

[Ueeediot]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

Exactly. Along with the Red Line extension to Alpharetta, which would be just huge for the Metro. The majority of residents up there have been clamoring for it for years, and the companies wish it were there yesterday.

This is so very true.

I think there are many in this town who see MARTA and building roads as mutually exclusive ideas. I think we need to look to do both. As mentioned here, there are some really smart corridors whee Marta expansion makes a lot of sense. Note the expansion in midtown includes new buildings by several companies who are currently based in Alpharetta and north. it would be great for employee retention if there were a train line out to there. I think it would also be nice if there were some 'express routes' added on those long lines.

Roads also need to be built. Why is there only 1 east-west expressway in the entire state? Not doing the outer perimeter in the 90s was just stupid. As stupid as continuing to not make it happen.

[jayden]

Out of all the proposed extensions, a Gwinnett county line to say, Pleasant Hill would make the most sense. With the county being the most densely populated, and most populated overall only behind Fulton, an extension would do it some good.

A North line toward Marrietta could work, but there are some areas that seem to be too sparse to make any sense. Same with the south Metro....


And yeah, people outside the Perimeter usually only use MARTA for games and to the airport. Aside from the panhandling, I think people just want their cars; even if traffic is a nightmare.

[initiald]

Extending the Gold line NE to Norcross, Duluth and maybe even Suwanee would be a no brainer except that Gwinett county has been so anti-transit. I'll have to find the article again, but the majority of people in Gwinett want transit expansion but the primarily while politicians keep resisting it.

[shivtim]

MARTA ridership on Monday was 45-50% higher than normal on the red and gold lines.
According to the AJC:
"[Breeze card] sales were up 111 percent Monday morning at North Springs and a whopping 172 percent at Sandy Springs."

[electricron]

Originally Posted by initiald

Extending the Gold line NE to Norcross, Duluth and maybe even Suwanee would be a no brainer except that Gwinett county has been so anti-transit. I'll have to find the article again, but the majority of people in Gwinett want transit expansion but the primarily while politicians keep resisting it.

Gwinett County rejected a penny sales tax to join MARTA at its inception. They didn't even have bus services previously. Since that time, the County has funded a small bus service out of its general funds, without a dedicated local funding source. It spends around $10 Million every year on Gwinett County Transit.

A penny sales tax increase would raise an additional $22 Million yearly from Gwinett County. Presently Gwinett County charges 6% sales tax rate, 4% goes to the State and 2% goes to the County. Last year it received $44 Million in sales tax revenues. back from the State. Who knows how much of it would remain in Gwinett County if a $22 Million in additional sales tax revenues went to MARTA every year?

Let's assume $10 million would return running the existing bus service, that would leave $12 million each year available for service expansion. That's about enough to add an one-eight mile of heavy rail - assuming none of the money was used for expanded bus services.