PHILADELPHIA | 500 Walnut | 380 FT | 26 FLOORS

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Larry King

unless you're signing on the loans, who cares if buildings thrive or fail?

I say build build build

It's not a very good thing for the city or for future growth to have lots of buildings with high vacancies.

[summersm343]

Article from Philadelphia Business Journal on the groundbreaking. Nothing we don't know really.
http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelp...ependence.html

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

This place will be amazing. Nice balcony upgrade from 1706 Rittenhouse. Fits both a lounging area with a sofa and a dining area with a table. I have to say I am a BIT concerned with the residential housing boom. Not so much with a place like this. There is enough wealth in the Main Line to fill 30 or so ultra luxury units. But there is SO much mid-range and luxury building happening. We really need another Fortune 100 company to move to or develop in Philly!

I think this thinking is misguided. PHiladelphia, unlike it's pier cities, has been so long and so dramatically neglected by its region as a whole, that I view most of the new construction, residential boom, and renewed suburban interest as simply "catching up." We're a BIG city, in a large 6+million metro, in a top-4 US media market - Philly is big.

For too long we've been ignored--that any new building proposed seems dramatic and impressive.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Londonee

I think this thinking is misguided. PHiladelphia, unlike it's pier cities, has been so long and so dramatically neglected by its region as a whole, that I view most of the new construction, residential boom, and renewed suburban interest as simply "catching up." We're a BIG city, in a large 6+million metro, in a top-4 US media market - Philly is big.

For too long we've been ignored--that any new building proposed seems dramatic and impressive.

Boston and DC really don't have much in the way of highrise condominium living. Obviously NYC does, but that's one thing Philly has over it's Northeastern peers - highrise residential living.

I wholeheartedly agree with your statement though.

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by Londonee

I think this thinking is misguided. PHiladelphia, unlike it's pier cities, has been so long and so dramatically neglected by its region as a whole, that I view most of the new construction, residential boom, and renewed suburban interest as simply "catching up." We're a BIG city, in a large 6+million metro, in a top-4 US media market - Philly is big.

For too long we've been ignored--that any new building proposed seems dramatic and impressive.

Scannapieco found a market for these condos in the 3 to 17 million price range. I believe he said the majority of the buyers were from the Main Line.

Plus, I would expect some of the highly paid athletes are going for this type of lifestyle too.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Londonee

I think this thinking is misguided. PHiladelphia, unlike it's pier cities, has been so long and so dramatically neglected by its region as a whole, that I view most of the new construction, residential boom, and renewed suburban interest as simply "catching up." We're a BIG city, in a large 6+million metro, in a top-4 US media market - Philly is big.

For too long we've been ignored--that any new building proposed seems dramatic and impressive.

I'm not quite sure what this is saying or what a new building seeming dramatic and impressive really has to do with anything...I was speaking more globally as to the massive surge in construction and not about just this one building. I am as happy to see all the construction and Philadelphia's resurgence as anyone. And in some ways I suppose we are catching up, but there is a tremendous glut of expensive residential real estate coming to market in the next few years. We are a big city, but we are also the poorest big city and our job opportunities have not been great historically (and still aren't). At least they haven't been since our manufacturing heyday. That is mitigated to a large degree by suburban companies, a lot of old and new wealth in the suburbs, people increasingly willing to reverse commute, and strength in -- at least -- the meds and eds sectors. However, for sustained longterm growth and to really reach our potential, we -- of course -- need to focus on strong employment opportunities within the city itself. Attracting and retaining companies is something we need to be critically concerned with. Look at how much of our significant construction and employment -- both direct and indirect -- can be attributed to Comcast alone. I'm not really sure how any of this could be disputed. Seems we are getting a bit far afield, though. Probably my fault. I agree that this will be an incredible building and that there is a market for this particular building.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Londonee

I think this thinking is misguided. PHiladelphia, unlike it's pier cities, has been so long and so dramatically neglected by its region as a whole, that I view most of the new construction, residential boom, and renewed suburban interest as simply "catching up." We're a BIG city, in a large 6+million metro, in a top-4 US media market - Philly is big.

For too long we've been ignored--that any new building proposed seems dramatic and impressive.

It may have been on Philly Speaks but there was a graph that showed the percentage of population that was high income, middle income, and lower income for a host of US cities. Compared to even Boston, we were not out of whack with the percentage of middle class and our lower class was only marginally higher. Where we were glaringly lacking was the wealthy. This is the demographic that has really been missing from the City. So I strongly agree with your assessment.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by PHL10

It may have been on Philly Speaks but there was a graph that showed the percentage of population that was high income, middle income, and lower income for a host of US cities. Compared to even Boston, we were not out of whack with the percentage of middle class and our lower class was only marginally higher. Where we were glaringly lacking was the wealthy. This is the demographic that has really been missing from the City. So I strongly agree with your assessment.

Do you have it? I'd be interested in seeing it. Not to be down on Philly any further (I am a champion of Philly and constantly lauding it really), but compare the median income by zip code in Boston in its Wikipedia entry to the same for Philadelphia in this Pew Report (page 9):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston


http://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/leg...tisticspdf.pdf

None of this, even the $196,518 median family income and $123,795 median household income in the Boston Financial district qualifies as wealthy (solidly middle class, though) and Philly really doesn't come close. Admittedly a bit difficult to do an apples to apples comparison without population and number of household data for Philly. Also the Pew Report is from 2013 and Philly has been exploding in the last few years.

The tide has turned and there has been a cultural shift and reclaiming of cities such that we will continue to see wealthy, middle-aged people and retirees as well as young professionals (20s to early 30s) stream into the city. That will not be hard to foster. But, no, we don't have good demographics in the 35 to 55 range and we don't have a solid middle class base. To grow one, we do need to focus intensely on jobs and improving the schools. (The expansion of the tax base we are seeing from increased wealth and population growth in the city will help facilitate this). Ok, off my soap box...last post from me that's not directly related to 500 Walnut.

[BenKatzPhillytoParis]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Do you have it? I'd be interested in seeing it. Not to be down on Philly any further (I am a champion of Philly and constantly lauding it really), but compare the median income by zip code in Boston in its Wikipedia entry to the same for Philadelphia in this Pew Report (page 9):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston


http://www.pewtrusts.org/~/media/leg...tisticspdf.pdf

None of this, even the $196,518 median family income and $123,795 median household income in the Boston Financial district qualifies as wealthy (solidly middle class, though) and Philly really doesn't come close. Admittedly a bit difficult to do an apples to apples comparison without population and number of household data for Philly. Also the Pew Report is from 2013 and Philly has been exploding in the last few years.

The tide has turned and there has been a cultural shift and reclaiming of cities such that we will continue to see wealthy, middle-aged people and retirees as well as young professionals (20s to early 30s) stream into the city. That will not be hard to foster. But, no, we don't have good demographics in the 35 to 55 range and we don't have a solid middle class base. To grow one, we do need to focus intensely on jobs and improving the schools. (The expansion of the tax base we are seeing from increased wealth and population growth in the city will help facilitate this). Ok, off my soap box...last post from me that's not directly related to 500 Walnut.

$123,000 is absolutely wealthy. Sure, depending on the number of children you have, it's certainly not ultra-wealthy, but it is not middle class at all. Median annual household income in the country is $51,000. How is $123,000 not wealthy??

[Insoluble]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

I'm not quite sure what this is saying or what a new building seeming dramatic and impressive really has to do with anything...I was speaking more globally as to the massive surge in construction and not about just this one building. I am as happy to see all the construction and Philadelphia's resurgence as anyone. And in some ways I suppose we are catching up, but there is a tremendous glut of expensive residential real estate coming to market in the next few years. We are a big city, but we are also the poorest big city and our job opportunities have not been great historically (and still aren't). At least they haven't been since our manufacturing heyday. That is mitigated to a large degree by suburban companies, a lot of old and new wealth in the suburbs, people increasingly willing to reverse commute, and strength in -- at least -- the meds and eds sectors. However, for sustained longterm growth and to really reach our potential, we -- of course -- need to focus on strong employment opportunities within the city itself. Attracting and retaining companies is something we need to be critically concerned with. Look at how much of our significant construction and employment -- both direct and indirect -- can be attributed to Comcast alone. I'm not really sure how any of this could be disputed. Seems we are getting a bit far afield, though. Probably my fault. I agree that this will be an incredible building and that there is a market for this particular building.

Not to continue the off topic conversation, but I think its important to remember that new development is influenced more by current trends than history. Philly has historically struggled with poverty and job loss, and that is reflected in the existing built environment. But we've seen consistent job growth since 2009 (and really since 2004 excluding the 2008 recession, which we fully recovered from in about 2012. See Bureau of Labor Statistics for details.) We've also seen the poverty decline steadily in the past 5 years from over 28% to about 26% in 2013 (Don't if 2014 data is available yet). The unemployment rate in the city is way down from the 11% it was a few years ago to just a bit above 6% now (lower than NYCs just as a basis of comparison.) And yes, all these statistics are for the city proper. All this while the population continues to grow. (The July 2013 estimate had us at close to 25,000 people added since 2010).

Increased population and employment concurrent with decreased unemployment rates and poverty levels pretty much means there has been a sustained growth in the population that is middle class or above. That means there is definitely a demand for new housing and development targeted to that demographic. That doesn't really imply anything about the demand for super high end luxury housing, but at the very least, it makes a good case for not worrying too much about there being a housing bubble!

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by BenKatzPhillytoParis

$123,000 is absolutely wealthy. Sure, depending on the number of children you have, it's certainly not ultra-wealthy, but it is not middle class at all. Median annual household income in the country is $51,000. How is $123,000 not wealthy??

Let's turn back to 500 Walnut. I feel bad for derailing the thread. I'll send you a PM later.

[summersm343]

Back to 500 Walnut guys.

Here is an article from Curbed Philly about the building with a ton of interior renderings. This building looks amazing. Also looks like half of the condos in the building have already been reserved.
http://philly.curbed.com/archives/20...-attention.php

And article/images of the groundbreaking from Philadelphia Business Journal.
http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelp...ks-ground.html

[philatonian]

On the link, click the image at the bottom right. It says it's Independence National Historical Park but I can't place the picture. It almost looks like a mashup of Rittenhouse Square, or something in New York. I can't think of any location near Independence Hall that looks like that.

http://www.500walnut.net/neighborhood/

[boxbot]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

Let's turn back to 500 Walnut. I feel bad for derailing the thread. I'll send you a PM later.

On a project designed for the ultra-wealthy, (units reported to be priced between $5.5m and $15m), I would suggest the discussion isn't off topic.

[aro1419]

Originally Posted by philatonian

On the link, click the image at the bottom right. It says it's Independence National Historical Park but I can't place the picture. It almost looks like a mashup of Rittenhouse Square, or something in New York. I can't think of any location near Independence Hall that looks like that.

http://www.500walnut.net/neighborhood/

As nice as that picture is, it is 100% not Philadelphia

[iheartphilly]

Originally Posted by BenKatzPhillytoParis

$123,000 is absolutely wealthy. Sure, depending on the number of children you have, it's certainly not ultra-wealthy, but it is not middle class at all. Median annual household income in the country is $51,000. How is $123,000 not wealthy??

Your definition of wealthy is really broad and misleading. 123k in a big city is peanuts. After taxes, retirement contribution, etc. the take home amount is not that much. 6 figures is not what it use to be...maybe in a small town or different part of the state with low cost of living standards and housing cost, but especially in the context of the 500 walnut product a dual income from 2 people of even $250 can't get you into the lower end condo unit of this project (starting at 3 million).

[mPhilly]

Automated robotic parking?!?! This place looks amazing. The condo fees are going to be insane.

http://www.500walnut.net/amenities/

[VikingDutchman]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Your definition of wealthy is really broad and misleading. 123k in a big city is peanuts. After taxes, retirement contribution, etc. the take home amount is not that much. 6 figures is not what it use to be...maybe in a small town or different part of the state with low cost of living standards and housing cost, but especially in the context of the 500 walnut product a dual income from 2 people of even $250 can't get you into the lower end condo unit of this project (starting at 3 million).

Of the 20 largest cities in the US, none have a median household income in the six figures. In NYC, it's barely more than 50k, which means that in the US city where you most often hear your claim being made, most households make less than half of what you are labeling "peanuts". And in case you're thinking that Manhattan specifically is different, Manhattan's is still south of 70k, according to the last stat I saw on it.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/2...ies-in-the-us/

Contrary to the agonizing of youngish professionals living in expensive neighborhoods in the biggest cities (btw, I'm a youngish professional living in an expensive neighborhood of one of the biggest cities, whose income is in the range you're talking about), six figures is a LOT of money in every city. You can't be comfortably middle class when the vast majority of households are getting by with less than you, probably a lot less. An inability to pay for every conceivable thing, live in the absolute best newest building, go to all the best new restaurants, etc... does not constitute a financial hardship.

just 100k at the household level puts you at about the 90th percentile of income nationally. That moves somewhat in high income areas, but not nearly enough to create the effect you're suggesting.

[Flyers2001]

Originally Posted by BenKatzPhillytoParis

$123,000 is absolutely wealthy. Sure, depending on the number of children you have, it's certainly not ultra-wealthy, but it is not middle class at all. Median annual household income in the country is $51,000. How is $123,000 not wealthy??

my household income is very close to 123k, we are no where near wealthy. I have 3 kids, slice it anyway you want 123k hh income is probably average for two college educated adults in their early thirties. College loans, mortgage, car payments, insurance's, household bills, kids tuitions. You might get a nice vacation every.now and then.

[BenKatzPhillytoParis]

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

my household income is very close to 123k, we are no where near wealthy. I have 3 kids, slice it anyway you want 123k hh income is probably average for two college educated adults in their early thirties. College loans, mortgage, car payments, insurance's, household bills, kids tuitions. You might get a nice vacation every.now and then.

I completely here what you're saying. But wealth is relative, and when you're above the 90th percentile for income in the country, and more than double the median in NYC, I think you have to call that wealthy. I don't see the point of confining the meaning of wealthy to only the top 1% or smaller, since that only dilutes the meaning of words we have at our disposal to describe the vast majority of people.

Nonetheless, I completely agree that wealthy is not sufficient to purchase a unit at 500 Walnut. You must be very wealthy or ultra-wealthy. And that's why there are so few of this kind of unit available in Philadelphia.