Rail-based Transit Discussion

[someone123]

Here's one diesel light rail system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Line_(NJ_Transit)

It has both a street-running section and separate sections that are shared with heavy trains. I have heard that this is not yet permitted by Transport Canada but I'm not sure if that is true.

The line was built based on ridership estimates of 5,500 passengers per day, which is the kind of target that I think could easily be hit along a route in Halifax. The cost recovery is only 7%, not including debt servicing. On the one hand this seems really bad but on the other it is an indication of how much more American cities are sometimes able to invest in their infrastructure. In Halifax there is often an insistence that infrastructure needs to nearly pay for itself, which does not make sense as a bar for projects that have significant public benefits. Most of the roads in Halifax have a 0% cost recovery in terms of pay per use, but they are still valuable and worth having.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

q12's suggestion above could simply be added as another stop on the route. Yes, it would add extra time to retrace its pathway to/from the dockyard, and there would have to be another siding or duplicate track added, but it's a possibility if the need is that great.

I'm not sure if you're saying what it sounds like you're saying, but nobody in their right mind is going to take a train from Bedford heading to downtown if it makes a 7km (return) detour all the way to the shipyard and back mid way. That's the equivalent of going all the way from Micmac Mall to Park Lane.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I'm not sure if you're saying what it sounds like you're saying, but nobody in their right mind is going to take a train from Bedford heading to downtown if it makes a 7km (return) detour all the way to the shipyard and back mid way. That's the equivalent of going all the way from Micmac Mall to Park Lane.

From my post: "if the need is that great", you could:
(1) Add extra runs at rush hour that terminate at and return from Dockyard.
(2) Have separate "express" runs that go directly downtown, along with "regular" runs that stop at the dockyard, then backtrack and go downtown, which would cover dockyard and also allow a north end to south end traverse (as suggested by q12).

Since details are somewhat scarce at the moment, one just has to use their imagination to see what the possibilities could be.

Also, FWIW, it would not be the equivalent of going from MMM to PLM, as it would be traversed on an uninterrupted rail run, with no bridges or other traffic bottlenecks to contend with, as you would by car/bus, or even bike.

[q12]

$50 Million for commuter rail in the budget over 4 years!



https://www.halifax.ca/sites/default...80124bcow5.pdf

[someone123]

The report says very little about commuter rail, but it seems like a big deal that they are including it in capital budget planning.

Is $50M truly just for capital expenses to implement the service, or will some of this be used for the first two years of operations? It's not clear what infrastructure improvements are planned as part of this, what rolling stock will be used (VIA trains?), etc. They will probably need to at minimum do some track upgrades and build platforms/stations at the new stops.

[IanWatson]

Originally Posted by someone123

The report says very little about commuter rail, but it seems like a big deal that they are including it in capital budget planning.

Is $50M truly just for capital expenses to implement the service, or will some of this be used for the first two years of operations? It's not clear what infrastructure improvements are planned as part of this, what rolling stock will be used (VIA trains?), etc. They will probably need to at minimum do some track upgrades and build platforms/stations at the new stops.

Looks like the numbers are based roughly on the previous study. They are also noted as +/- 50% accurate (so $25 million to $75 million?).

I suspect the big thing is that $500k to figure out all the details you mention. It'll be interesting to see this budget sheet a year from now.

[someone123]

This story adds a little more background: http://signalhfx.ca/halifax-transit-...ter-rail-plan/

The vote on the initial $500,000 for planning passed, and ideally the service will start in 2020.

[someone123]

A recent article with commuter rail updates:

http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/1...-commuter-rail

It also talks about how something north of $200M is likely to be spent by the federal government on transit projects in metro Halifax. It mentions $1.5B in federal funds for Calgary too, which demonstrates how far behind Halifax is in terms of transit development. In per capita terms that would work out to $500M in transit investment for Halifax, a number far beyond any modern investment that has taken place.

[Ethan_Ainsworth]

Is it yet known if the 'road train' is returning this year?

[mleblanc]

Originally Posted by Ethan_Ainsworth

Is it yet known if the 'road train' is returning this year?

I've seen it around downtown so far. Probably the most annoying thing ever to come to downtown Halifax.

[someone123]

A commuter rail line recently opened between Hartford and Springfield MA.

Some information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartford_Line

I thought it was kind of interesting. There are some similarities to a possible Halifax line and some differences.

This project involves restoring two-way track along a route that was previously reduced to one track, so similar to the line through the rail cut. It is quite a bit longer at 100 km and it will run at speeds of up to 180 km/h, which is interesting. High-speed rail gets a lot of attention but it's good to remember that "medium speed" rail is possible too (in comparison to the ultra-slow rail we currently have) and it is much cheaper.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by someone123

A commuter rail line recently opened between Hartford and Springfield MA.

Some information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartford_Line

I thought it was kind of interesting. There are some similarities to a possible Halifax line and some differences.

This project involves restoring two-way track along a route that was previously reduced to one track, so similar to the line through the rail cut. It is quite a bit longer at 100 km and it will run at speeds of up to 180 km/h, which is interesting. High-speed rail gets a lot of attention but it's good to remember that "medium speed" rail is possible too (in comparison to the ultra-slow rail we currently have) and it is much cheaper.

I was actually just chatting with one of my staff about the commuter rail issue, and wondering what the state of it is. We recruited him here from Europe, and he is of course used to higher level public transport. He had mentioned that his wife would like to live out in Fall River, but he wouldn't want to have to do the drive to the peninsula every day. I was telling him that there was the plan floated for commuter rail that would go right past Fall River area, but that the plan seemed to have cooled off. Anyone know the state of where that sits?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

A commuter rail line recently opened between Hartford and Springfield MA.

Some information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartford_Line

I thought it was kind of interesting. There are some similarities to a possible Halifax line and some differences.

This project involves restoring two-way track along a route that was previously reduced to one track, so similar to the line through the rail cut. It is quite a bit longer at 100 km and it will run at speeds of up to 180 km/h, which is interesting. High-speed rail gets a lot of attention but it's good to remember that "medium speed" rail is possible too (in comparison to the ultra-slow rail we currently have) and it is much cheaper.

100 km is the distance from Truro to Halifax. This is also the main development axis in NS. It would be neat to see commuter rail the whole way between these two communities. Of course, high frequency commuter rail might not be feasible along the whole route.

How about half hourly to hourly service from downtown to Fall River or Elmsdale (depending on whether it is rush hour or not), service every two hours (7AM to 11PM) from Halifax to Truro and trains 3-4x per day from Halifax to Moncton (plus the Ocean 3x per week).

This would seem ambitious but the best way to stimulate demand (and usage) is by making it convenient.

If there were convenient rail connections between downtown Moncton and downtown Halifax, I know I would certainly be much more inclined to consider taking the train.

[Keith P.]

Hartford has a metro population of 1.2 million.

Springfield has a metro population of nearly 700,000.

Keep dreaming, NS folks.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by beyeas

I was actually just chatting with one of my staff about the commuter rail issue, and wondering what the state of it is. We recruited him here from Europe, and he is of course used to higher level public transport. He had mentioned that his wife would like to live out in Fall River, but he wouldn't want to have to do the drive to the peninsula every day. I was telling him that there was the plan floated for commuter rail that would go right past Fall River area, but that the plan seemed to have cooled off. Anyone know the state of where that sits?

The city is now waiting for the results of a capacity study from CN.

http://thechronicleherald.ca/metro/1...-commuter-rail

I don't think the project has cooled off. HRM council has already committed $500,000 of funding and there's another $30M or so of funding planned for the next couple of years. There is also a federal infrastructure fund that is supposed to result in around $150M in transit funding for Halifax.

Admittedly it could still not happen if CN is too obstructionist. But if they are not and it is easy to run a reasonable schedule on the existing line then I think the project has a high chance of happening.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Hartford has a metro population of 1.2 million.

Springfield has a metro population of nearly 700,000.

Keep dreaming, NS folks.

There are a number of differences.

The proposed Halifax line is 30 km while the CT-MA one is 100 km. The length makes a big difference to the cost of track upgrades and to the frequency of service that can be provided with a given number of vehicles.

US metropolitan areas are calculated differently. Metro Hartford includes 4 different counties. Most of those people live nowhere near the commuter rail line. Hartford city has about 125,000 people while Springfield is around 150,000.

US cities also tend to have lower transit ridership (for a bunch of reasons, but car ownership is cheaper and US cities are sprawlier). Halifax has transit ridership shares equivalent to second-tier US cities with metropolitan areas of millions, and one of the highest shares in North America.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by someone123

There are a number of differences.

The proposed Halifax line is 30 km while the CT-MA one is 100 km. The length makes a big difference to the cost of track upgrades and to the frequency of service that can be provided with a given number of vehicles.

US metropolitan areas are calculated differently. Metro Hartford includes 4 different counties. Most of those people live nowhere near the commuter rail line. Hartford city has about 125,000 people while Springfield is around 150,000.

US cities also tend to have lower transit ridership (for a bunch of reasons, but car ownership is cheaper and US cities are sprawlier). Halifax has transit ridership shares equivalent to second-tier US cities with metropolitan areas of millions, and one of the highest shares in North America.

HRM population is about 415,000. If they get commuter rail running and can show it a success, watch every other small city get one.

And that would be a good thing.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

HRM population is about 415,000. If they get commuter rail running and can show it a success, watch every other small city get one.

I think it depends on the city.

Halifax is somewhat rare in that it has a really good completely grade-separate rail line running through the city that used to be used for passenger rail. It also has limited space to run new rail lines.

Many other cities have rail lines that aren't grade-separated and run mostly through industrial areas. They also have bigger arterial roads that can be converted to transit right of ways. In these cities, light rail makes more sense than heavy rail.

Calgary, Edmonton, and Kitchener-Waterloo ended up with LRT instead of commuter rail. Calgary and Edmonton were about the same size Halifax is now when they built their first LRT lines.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think it depends on the city.

Halifax is somewhat rare in that it has a really good completely grade-separate rail line running through the city that used to be used for passenger rail. It also has limited space to run new rail lines.

Many other cities have rail lines that aren't grade-separated and run mostly through industrial areas. They also have bigger arterial roads that can be converted to transit right of ways. In these cities, light rail makes more sense than heavy rail.

Calgary, Edmonton, and Kitchener-Waterloo ended up with LRT instead of commuter rail. Calgary and Edmonton were about the same size Halifax is now when they built their first LRT lines.

Many of those cities are much denser than Halifax is.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Many of those cities are much denser than Halifax is.

This is misleading. It is true if you calculate the average density by dividing the total population by the total land area. It is a mixed bag if you look at the neighbourhoods where people live and discount areas where nobody lives (woods). Most of HRM's land area is uninhabited and nobody's proposing transit for those places.

Halifax has some of the densest census tracts in that list of cities and some of those are right next to where the commuter rail will run.

It is really the density around the stations and their catchment areas that matters and you can't say much about that with high-level statistics like metropolitan population totals and city-wide population densities. You need to know what the exact route is and what the travel patterns will be like. This is why cities commission studies when developing these services.

Even just in the Halifax commuter rail case the level of ridership, if it's implemented, will depend on factors like whether or not the bus routes feed into the stations, park-and-ride, and transit-oriented development.